/co/ - Comics & Cartoons » Thread #110314808

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Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 18:00:23 2019 No.110314808 View Reply Original Report

Why was Zod's death so controversial?
>Snyder said Superman killed Zod in the Man of Steel comics so he was being faithful to the source
> No similar outrage for the Marvel heroes killing Thanos or Spider-man killing Ebony Maw

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 18:01:11 No.110314820 Report

Quoted By: >>110315605 >>110321349

>>110314808
It was rushed, Superman shouldn’t start out killing, he needs to be established as someone who will let a villain live first.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 18:05:12 No.110314909 Report

Quoted By: >>110316633 >>110319652

>>110314808
"Is Superman willing to kill Zod to stop him" was never established as a conflict, and therefore when it happens, and is treated as the dramatic climax of the film, it comes out of nowhere

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 18:08:15 No.110314970 Report

Quoted By:

How is it you're aware of controversy without reading what people were reacting to and why?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 18:16:24 No.110315166 Report

Quoted By:

>>110314808
MCU never had a no kill rule until Spider-Man (and Daredevil but functionally that's not canon anymore)

Snyder ever established a no kill rule and has Clark be the indirect cause of many people's deaths, and he let Pa die, who wanted him to let people die, but then suddenly he's torn up over killing one person

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 18:17:09 No.110315182 Report

Quoted By:

OP is a fag.

That fight scene between Zod and Jor-El in the beginning was well done even though the entire context surrounding it is wrong.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 18:23:09 No.110315324 Report

Quoted By: >>110315464 >>110315597

>>110314808
Because Superman being a pussy is baked into his DNA; Marvel heroes don't have that problem.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 18:30:32 No.110315464 Report

Quoted By: >>110315547 >>110317319

>>110315324
>killed Zod and two other Kryptonians
>killed Doomsday
>sung Darkseid out of existence

He's less of a pussy than Batman or Marvel guys like Spider-man or Hulk and his gay gamma math.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 18:32:20 No.110315498 Report

Quoted By: >>110319331 >>110322468 >>110322698

>>110314808
Because it was poorly executed. That's the same reason as usual with Snyder.
Aside from the improper buildup the other anons pointed out, the scene itself is fucking stupid. You put Superman in a situation where he supposedly has to kill because... 4 people he doesn't know are going to be killed on screen. And that's the thing, Zod had already caused thousands of deaths off screen deaths at this point, some of which Supes was in the first row to see, why is saving these 4 the thing that pushes him to kill?
Forget even about that, the people could have just fucked off from the corner where they were while Superman was holding Zod, there is nothing actually stopping them. If you're going to cause a situation where you're making it out there's no solution to save these people aside from killing, you better make damn sure that it actually looks that way.
And then Superman twists Zod's neck TOWARDS the innocents. It should reasonably fry them.
Also
>NOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAARGH

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 18:32:48 No.110315506 Report

Quoted By:

>>110314808
Because in our first Superman movie we see that pa kent chastises Superman for saving a bus full of children than proceeds to commit suicide saving s dog from a tornado. What were we supposed to think of clark in this movie when he was never the point of these lessons, only Superman

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 18:34:17 No.110315536 Report

Quoted By:

Does Superman like being Superman? The films make it hard to tell. Him killing for the sake of saving others is hard to establish when he's so uncertain about his purpose in life, and what Jor-El and Pa are supposed to be teaching him.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 18:34:53 No.110315547 Report

Quoted By:

>>110315464
>Hulk and his gay gamma math.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 18:36:35 No.110315576 Report

Quoted By:

>>110314808
>Spider-man killing Ebony Maw
But that was Iron Man. Spider-man did kill a bunch of nameless mooks, however.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 18:37:01 No.110315582 Report

Quoted By: >>110315605

>>110314808
Because Superman needs to be better. Having him kill on his first outing is way too soon. It needs to actually feel like his hand is being forced, not that this will be his go to option for threats bigger than a group of gunmen. Meaning Zod either needed to come much further down the line or Superman shouldn't have killed him in MoS.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 18:37:46 No.110315592 Report

Quoted By: >>110317877

I like Zack Snyder's child-like method of constructing a movie entirely around scenes that sound cool in his head. He has positively no concept in his mind of what a narrative even is, just scenes and ideas and the least difficult justifications he can throw up to make them happen.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 18:38:03 No.110315597 Report

Quoted By:

>>110315324
Marvel heroes have a problem, it just isn't "having enough humanity to not pull the trigger".

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 18:38:29 No.110315605 Report

Quoted By: >>110315724 >>110318844 >>110320555

>>110314820
>because I said so
Nah, regret gives pretty good reasoning to never do it again.

>>110315582
His hand was being forced.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 18:45:25 No.110315724 Report

Quoted By:

>>110315605
>Nah, regret gives pretty good reasoning to never do it again.
Why would he regret it other than it made him feel bad? It saved the day, he had no other plans to stop Zod aside from talking at him like Steven, and that wasn't working. It doesn't even work as a lesson that Superman shouldn't kill because you were putting him in a situation where he should.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 18:45:52 No.110315736 Report

Quoted By: >>110315822

Honestly one of the failings of most DC movies is that filmmakers fail to understand that Batman and Superman are supposed to be so impossibly skilled that they don’t need to kill. They don’t need to resort to killing because they can and should be better than that. Hollywood doesn’t understand this mentality at all, they figure if you have a big stick you should always crack somebody over the head with it. If you hand them an olive branch they will do their best to jam it in someone’s eye.

Dates all the way back to the Michael Keaton Batman film, where Batman just rolled into Joker’s lair fillies with henchman, then dropped off some bombs and drove out. Batman just blew everybody up, that’s not a skill. That’s not heroic. The general audience laps it up though.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 18:48:40 No.110315788 Report

Quoted By:

The filmmakers gave him an ascension to his ideals rather than starting them from the get go.
Superman moving forward is more relaxed because "he's been there" when consoling other people.

Having him kill (and struggle with it) on the first film's introduction was a bold move but I can see why they went for it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 18:50:39 No.110315822 Report

Quoted By: >>110316090 >>110320584

>>110315736
You have to take into the fact that they chose a Batman that has fallen from grace over the years.
Him meeting Superman revitalizes his hope in the days to come.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 18:55:53 No.110315904 Report

Quoted By: >>110317318

The neck snap. If Zod had just been vaporized by something like the Super Nova power from late New 52, or fell powerless in space after fighting Superman for a while behind the moon, I doubt there'd be much of a commotion.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 19:06:38 No.110316090 Report

Quoted By: >>110316596 >>110317233 >>110317343

>>110315822
I was referencing the first Batman film back in '89.

...but your point is also a failing on Zach's part and it has to do with rushing these films. Just as others have noted; Superman finally deciding he has no choice but to kill shouldn't be done in the first film. It should have been saved for the 2nd, or even better the 3rd, film. That way it would have had more impact on the audience.

Similarly, our first Batman outing shouldn't be a Batman that has already fallen from grace. The "fall" can only come once we've been presented with the standard and then the redemption is earned because we saw them crawl back up. The DCU films didn't care about any of that, so it skipped to the 3rd act and gave us a redemption that was unearned and lacked the sting of the initial fall. These are absolutely bog standard dramatic storytelling rules, and you CAN break them...but only after you've followed them. Storytellers need to give things weight before they cast them off.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 19:15:42 No.110316285 Report

Quoted By: >>110316536 >>110317363

Superman shouldn't kill for the explicit reason that Superman should be above that, that's why he's fucking Superman. Snyder wants me to know that his Superman is different to the comics because he will kill but at the same time he wants me to believe that this is a big deal to Superman even though he seems to not give much of a shit about collateral damage given how he trashed Smallville and Metropolis.

DC actually wanted the guy who said that "his Batman could get raped in prison" and took Watchmen seriously to lead their Cinematic Universe using DC's beloved pantheon of comic book characters.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 19:31:05 No.110316536 Report

Quoted By:

>>110316285
>only acceptable attempts are movies where he attempts to tell the story panel for panel
>can't construct superhero movie
>tries to deconstruct superhero movie

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 19:34:09 No.110316596 Report

Quoted By: >>110316949

>>110316090
Eh, not all films need to be an origin story and same goes with the arc of a single film being stretched to three.
Not saying it shouldn't but it doesn't have to be.
I wouldn't even be against the DCEU starting off with the Justice League already in place and doing a Tower of Babel storyline.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 19:36:39 No.110316633 Report

Quoted By:

>>110314909
>change the superman methos
>want to have pay off shocker that superman kills someone
>confused that no one cares he killed anyone, let alone the fact that no one gave a shit about this superman
>the only one who cares are superman faithful who hates what he's done to this superman
atleast it had giant metal octopus

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 19:40:45 No.110316720 Report

Quoted By: >>110316865

How about the fact that the Negative Zone was the obvious solution to defeat Zod and Snyder had to force in an extremely artificial and entertaining sacrifice of a side character to hastily write it out of the plot so Clark couldn't use it. He introduced a Maguffin and then realized ten feet from the finish line he shouldn't have done it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 19:47:50 No.110316865 Report

Quoted By: >>110316919

>>110316720
Sending them back to the Phantom Zone was a one-time trick that they used.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 19:49:20 No.110316894 Report

Quoted By:

>>110314808
I miss him

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 19:50:54 No.110316919 Report

Quoted By:

>>110316865
Yeah and it shouldn't have been part of the film if Snyder was so terrified to do it again.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 19:52:37 No.110316949 Report

Quoted By: >>110316973

>>110316596
>Eh, not all films need to be an origin story and same goes with the arc of a single film being stretched to three.
Effectively, BvS was an Origin story.
Batman's coming out of retirement and regaining hope is the origin of the second chapter of his career.
It's also the exact same beat Goyer did twice already in TDKR so the man clearly has no other ideas,

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 19:53:07 No.110316959 Report

Quoted By:

Superman had a literal mental breakdown and had to get a murderer off death row to help assuage the guilt after the last time he killed a Zod. Superman hasn't nonchalantly killed in decades.

Aside from the ass characterization, him doing it at that point in the film only made all the deaths up to that point meaningless. Also he totally could have stopped him from murdering those particular people in that moment without killing him.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 19:54:07 No.110316973 Report

Quoted By:

>>110316949
By origin story I specifically meant like a Year One type of deal but you're still technically correct.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:07:51 No.110317233 Report

Quoted By: >>110318239

>>110316090
Snyder was trying to build up on previous depictions of the characters, basically he thought everyone would be super interested in his subversion because they had already gotten Reeves, Keaton, Bale, etc... which could be all fine and well but at that point don't make an origin movie for Superman at all.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:12:24 No.110317318 Report

Quoted By: >>110317473

>>110315904
But then that'd take the choice out of Superman.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:12:27 No.110317319 Report

Quoted By:

>>110315464
>>sung Darkseid out of existence
this part is so silly, but Batman and Superman's intention to actually kill Darkseid is pretty cool

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:13:36 No.110317343 Report

Quoted By: >>110317473

>>110316090
Why wasn't John Wick first movie about the start of his career?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:14:37 No.110317363 Report

Quoted By: >>110317383

>>110316285
Superman has killed in the movies several times. Superman kills, and fucks. Superman ain't a saint.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:15:56 No.110317383 Report

Quoted By:

>>110317363
I meant comics. I fucked it up. Superman is also a goddamn liar while i'm at it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:17:30 No.110317411 Report

Quoted By:

Superman is a fucking killing machine, he always has been.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:21:37 No.110317473 Report

Quoted By: >>110317512

>>110317318
So like the scene Snyder thinks we got? The whole point was putting him in a position where he had absolutely no choice but to kill him.

>>110317343
Origin movies aren't necessary, but let's be real nobody watches John Wick for the story.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:23:36 No.110317512 Report

Quoted By: >>110317657

>>110317473
>So like the scene Snyder thinks we got? The whole point was putting him in a position where he had absolutely no choice but to kill him.
Superman still had to choose if he'd kill Zod or not. Zod simple falling over because he's tired or something takes that away. That's akin to Zod slipping a banana and breaking his neck during the fight.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:24:42 No.110317527 Report

Quoted By: >>110317567

I think we need to retire Supes. He is obviously not meant for the modern world.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:27:01 No.110317567 Report

Quoted By: >>110317675

>>110317527
People should just remember that he's a fictitious character and not something to be glorified. That's the biggest hurdle the character face. He can't ever do something slightly problematic that people turn their face saying NOT MUH. So the character can only ever be the safest and blandest shit ever, otherwise his fans might riot. It's a shit position to be in and it's killing the character.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:28:10 No.110317590 Report

Quoted By:

>>110314808
>Spider-Suit! KILL
Speak for yourself. I almost threw up when that happened.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:30:48 No.110317636 Report

Quoted By: >>110317763 >>110317792

>>110314808
Iron Man doesnt have a no kill rule anon. He has killed terrorists since his very first movie so him killing Thanos does fit in.

Now Spiderman, you could make a case that Maw was an alien so it doesnt really count, or that he only killed him indirectly or whatever but thats a thin excuse. Plus, there's also Spiderman using the instant kill mode or whatever thats called against Thanos' minions in Endgame. Spiderman's no kill rule has been fucked up but it was in self defense i guess.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:32:00 No.110317657 Report

Quoted By: >>110317714

>>110317512
No, he had fuckall for agency, Goyer and Snyder, by way of Zod, completely forced his hand.
The alternative, as the movie presents it, is Superman watching innocents die on screen because he didn't feel like making the hard choice. It's a narrative trap not a choice.
If Superman had killed Zod because he was affraid he might hurt innocents in the future, that's him making a choice, alter ego self defense is not a choice for a superhero, it's the whole fucking thing that makes him a superhero.
Could you imagine a version of this scene where Supes chooses to just let Zod kill the innocent family? No, of course not, it's not a believable choice in the context of a Superman movie.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:33:56 No.110317675 Report

Quoted By: >>110317731

>>110317567
>if you don't like Snyder's shitty take it means you're just being difficult
As has been pointed out itt, Superman killing is fine (and has happened a lot), as usual the idea isn't the issue, it's the execution.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:35:40 No.110317714 Report

Quoted By: >>110318037

>>110317657
But Superman deciding to snap Zod's neck for the protection of others is still something that was done for the shock. The choice was out of his hands, because it was that or watch them die, but Superman still choose to kill, which is shocking. If Zod had just said "Wait a moment, i can't breath right" and died, then nobody would have faulted Superman for Zod's death. They'd have blamed it on poor luck.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:35:57 No.110317720 Report

Quoted By: >>110317804

>>110314808
I didn't mind it.

That said it would be more kino if Zod let himself die on purpose and Clark tried to save him.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:36:43 No.110317731 Report

Quoted By: >>110317895

>>110317675
The problem is Superman killing. Don't be mistaken on that.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:38:06 No.110317763 Report

Quoted By:

>>110317636
I don't think anybody in the MCU films has a no kill rule.
The reason they don't explicitly want Spider-Man killing people is that he's portrayed by a young actor.
If it was adult Peter, nobody would really bat an eye on him fighting someone to their last breath.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:39:49 No.110317792 Report

Quoted By: >>110317861 >>110317943

>>110317636
Most superhero fights are self-defense, so I guess they should all kill.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:40:34 No.110317804 Report

Quoted By: >>110319384

>>110317720
>Zod let himself die on purpose
That would unironically be out of character.
Zod is the parallel to Superman in that he will never stop fighting for his world since that is what he was literally born to do.
When Superman took that away from him, he wanted to return the favor out of spite.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:43:15 No.110317861 Report

Quoted By:

>>110317792
Well they shouldn't murder, that's for sure.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:43:53 No.110317877 Report

Quoted By:

>>110315592

It's funny cause it's true.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:44:53 No.110317892 Report

Quoted By: >>110322574

>>110314808
Didn't Tony kill ebony maw though?
You snyderfags can't even understand MCU shit?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:45:09 No.110317895 Report

Quoted By: >>110317934

>>110317731
If that allows you to ignore all the legitimate criticism explaining why this specific depiction of Superman killing sucks, more power to you.

And honestly even if you were right that's how big franchises work, nothing specific to Superman. People bitch when you change things, I can't think of a single long-running franchise that hasn't shown that time and time again. The reason people follow an IP despite changing creative teams is because they like some aspects of it and are attached to the characters.
Which is why it's easier to just make a Superman expy to tell your super interesting deconstruction of Superman which will certainly be completely novel compared to the dozens of deconstructions of the character other people have done.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:47:04 No.110317923 Report

Quoted By:

>>110314808
>big blue boy scout image
>thanos and ebony maw don't look remotely human
>zod looks human and killing one of your own kind never looks good even if he had to be put down
Pick all the above.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:47:09 No.110317927 Report

Quoted By: >>110318459

>>110314808
Attention /co/!

Ahem...
NO KILL RULE ARE AND ALWAYS HAVE BEEN CONTRIVED AND GAY UNLESS THE CHARACTER IN QUESTION’S MORAL CONVICTION IS A DEFINING CHARACTERISTIC OF OF WHO THEY ARE AS A CHARACTER.

e.g. Aang from Avatar, Batman, that one fuck from the walking dead, etc.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:47:32 No.110317934 Report

Quoted By: >>110317961 >>110318025

>>110317895
The point is that Superman isn't a saint and shouldn't be treated like one just because your head-canon has him as so. Superman has killed several times over the years. Superman has fought villains while toppling buildings several times. Superman has acted as a jerk-ass several times. Superman has done tons of things.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:48:17 No.110317943 Report

Quoted By: >>110317987

>>110317792
>Most superhero fights are self-defense
That's how the law sees it. When you go out of your way to catch criminals in the act and beat their ass, it's not self-defense.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:49:25 No.110317961 Report

Quoted By: >>110317979 >>110318084

>>110317934
Not that anon you replied to but people really wanted another Reeves Superman cheese since I think that's what they are most familiar with.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:50:21 No.110317979 Report

Quoted By: >>110318084

>>110317961
They really did. You can see that 50% of the reviews complain about the movie not being another romcom like the older movies.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:50:41 No.110317987 Report

Quoted By:

>>110317943
It's called vigilantism, but then it isn't the ordinary thugs and criminals that have it for the capes anyways.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:51:39 No.110318006 Report

Quoted By: >>110318043

I'm perfectly fan with MoS Supes killing.
The way it was directed was hilariously hackeneyed.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:52:32 No.110318025 Report

Quoted By: >>110318099

>>110317934
So you're just going to coontinue to ignore what I actually write in my posts?
The issue isn't him not being a saint or him killing, it's making a shit movie where the emotional buildup to the killing isn't there and the payoff of the actual killing looks fucking goofy. Like James Bond villain death trap goofy.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:53:10 No.110318037 Report

Quoted By:

>>110317714
>”Wait bro, you’re sitting on my diaphragm”
>”hurk blah”
God damn it why does that scenario you just described make me laugh so much.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:53:33 No.110318043 Report

Quoted By:

>>110318006
The couple fucks it up. It should have been just Superman realizing that Zod wouldn't stop trying to kill people as revenge and him out of his own volition deciding that killing Zod is for the best. The couple feels something they felt was needed otherwise people would feel Superman was too cold or murderous, or something to that effect.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:55:26 No.110318084 Report

Quoted By: >>110318126 >>110318214

>>110317961
>>110317979
That wouldn't be as much of an issue if what we got for a change of pace wasn't dogshit. People are more willing to accept change if you execute it well.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:56:14 No.110318099 Report

Quoted By: >>110318284 >>110319884

>>110318025
But the emotional buildup to the killing WAS THERE. The anons here simple are being retarded on that point. Throughout the whole fight Zod is having fun bringing shit down out of spite. Zod himself tells Superman and the audience that he won't stop killing just to spite Superman and that if Superman wants to put a stop to it he'll have to murder his ass. That's the build up right there.

The way it happened was indeed goofy as fuck. You're right about that.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:57:21 No.110318126 Report

Quoted By:

>>110318084
That's your opinion, brah.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 20:59:50 No.110318181 Report

Quoted By:

>>110314808
>>Snyder said Superman killed Zod in the Man of Steel comics so he was being faithful to the source

That comic was shit and everybody has hated it for decades.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 21:01:05 No.110318214 Report

Quoted By: >>110318410

>>110318084
It still is my favourite cape film out of the flood of cape films which isn't really a high bar in the first place.
Zod is such a fantastic parallel character to Superman in the film that I don't think any villain that has come out compares to this day.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 21:02:27 No.110318239 Report

Quoted By: >>110318294

>>110317233

Plus we had seen origins and early stories for Batman on screen before, sure. But we never saw him interact with the DC universe on screen. Making that old man Bruce was fucking retarded.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 21:04:06 No.110318284 Report

Quoted By: >>110318340

>>110318099
I mean the buildup towards him being unwilling to kill. It's never really established in the movie that Clark has an utmost respect for life to the point where he wouldn't outright kill a guy who's killed 5000 people, so when he does (in a way where his hand is forced) and goes NAAAARGH it's just super unsatisfying. It's like a serbian jew double Aang.
It feels like it's more Superman being sad to kill any chance for Krypton existing (which actually happens in another scene) than him being upset about going against his morals.
And it's not a way for him to learn any morals about not killing either, him killing totally saved the day.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 21:04:39 No.110318294 Report

Quoted By: >>110318350 >>110318487 >>110320743

>>110318239
No, it wasn't. Batman didn't need an origin and didn't need to be young. There's nothing wrong about a veteran Batman meeting a newcomer Superman.
Fuck, in the New 52 Batman was older than Superman and they acted like he was a mentor of sorts a lot of times. I didn't see anyone complaining about that shit.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 21:06:32 No.110318340 Report

Quoted By: >>110318552

>>110318284
>It's never really established in the movie that Clark has an utmost respect for life to the point where he wouldn't outright kill a guy who's killed 5000 people, so when he does (in a way where his hand is forced) and goes NAAAARGH it's just super unsatisfying.
The movie shows you time and time again that Superman goes out of his way to save and help people, even when that means that shit might hit the fan for him. He's extremely caring and emotional.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 21:06:54 No.110318350 Report

Quoted By:

>>110318294
>I didn't see anyone complaining about that shit.
I saw plenty of people complain about that. People were more upset about thing like WonderSupes but the different dynamic between Superman and Batman definitely raised some eyebrows.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 21:09:19 No.110318410 Report

Quoted By: >>110318507

>>110318214
>out of the flood of cape films which isn't really a high bar in the first place.
Out of curiosity, what movie would you personally consider a high bar to clear? No bully, promise.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 21:11:53 No.110318459 Report

Quoted By: >>110318709

>>110317927
Or, like, Superman?

You fucking dunce.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 21:12:55 No.110318487 Report

Quoted By:

>>110318294
But that was also shit in the New52. It's been dropped for being shit. It's total shit. Goddamn man, what are you?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 21:13:22 No.110318503 Report

Quoted By:

Why does Batman have no qualms about killing but the Joker is still alive?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 21:13:35 No.110318507 Report

Quoted By: >>110320708

>>110318410
No Country for Old Men at the top of my head has a structure for a good vs. evil dynamic that is prevalent in any western but since it's written by the Coen brothers it is a subversion of that genre.
Always wanted them to spearhead a Jonah Hex film.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 21:15:50 No.110318552 Report

Quoted By: >>110318585 >>110318647

>>110318340
None of that is establishing he's unwilling to kill a mass murderer. Of all the damn pep talks he gets in this movie, not one of them has to do with how you actually deal with a threat. The unwilling to kill trait is part of what Snyder and Goyer want us to assume because of what we know of other incarnations of the character.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 21:17:33 No.110318585 Report

Quoted By:

>>110318552

Really fucking retarded of them to try to subvert or make more "real" and "gritty" various aspects of the character while assuming we still expect other parts of the character to remain true until they shockingly aren't.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 21:19:55 No.110318634 Report

Quoted By:

>>110314808
>>Snyder said Superman killed Zod in the Man of Steel comics so he was being faithful to the source

i wish they stuck with that. adds to the character imo

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 21:20:36 No.110318647 Report

Quoted By: >>110318803

>>110318552
Maybe we're jumping the gun here. We're all assuming that Superman cried because he had specifically to kill Zod, when he could have cried simple because the threat was finally over and he's finally coming to grip with all the tragedy of the day. Not to mention that it isn't to kill someone, specially when you've never killed before.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 21:23:57 No.110318709 Report

Quoted By: >>110318744 >>110318848

>>110318459
Tell that to every modern Superman comic writer of the past 2 decades.

At least in modern shit, “KILL BAD!” has always been a rule for Batman but a guideline for Superman.
Anyone have that scene where Superman is interrogating someone (forget who) and he threatens to murder the fuck out of them if they don’t cooperate. And he plays it off like it was a bluff but he happened to be touching the lasso of truth at the time for some reason, meaning he was 100% serious.

I hope people know what I’m talking about so I don’t sound like a rambling retard. It’s been a while.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 21:25:52 No.110318744 Report

Quoted By: >>110318836 >>110318975 >>110319467

>>110318709
You do sound like you're rambling.

If such a scene exists, it just sounds awful and out of character. But DC went through years of trying to make every character awful and out of character to make them some vague notion of modern with some sort of ill defined edge. They themselves tried to fuck up their characters, and it just didn't work.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 21:28:21 No.110318803 Report

Quoted By:

>>110318647
I mean yes, you can find all sorts of reasons the scene isn't the stupidest thing ever, but fact is it didn't work for a lot of people.
They could have used some of the movie to have him deal with a more minor threat where he allows a violent criminal to live (behind bars), but all the threats he deals with are non-personified. Which, him fighting natural threads is great, man vs. nature is an important aspect of Supes, but a scene where he deals with more human threats could have helped establish his M.O. regarding that before the Kryptonians attacks.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 21:29:40 No.110318836 Report

Quoted By: >>110318996

>>110318744

Okay I cam off as an ass here,
>You do sound like you're rambling.
Wasn't meant wholly on the point you raised, but rather your sentence structure.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 21:29:55 No.110318844 Report

Quoted By:

>>110315605
>His hand was being forced.
There are other ways to avert someone's gaze aside from breaking their neck, especially when you already have an advantageous position.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 21:30:06 No.110318848 Report

Quoted By: >>110318975 >>110319283

>>110318709
I do remember a scene like that, but it was with Batman and it happened in Alex Ross' JUSTICE. Batman had been infected by Poison Ivy and was keeping "sane" by Wonder Woman's lasso, that was enveloping his body. The League ask him to interrogate... Captain Cold, i think? And he threatens Captain Cold with some shit that leaves Captain Cold scared shitless. The League assumes Batman was merely bluffing, but Elongated Man realize Batman is being honest and truthful because of the lasso's powers.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 21:36:43 No.110318975 Report

Quoted By: >>110319024

>>110318744
>>110318848
>captain cold
Ok yeah that sounds right.
So I was wrong it was Batman not Superman? My bad. Like I said it’s been a while.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 21:37:57 No.110318996 Report

Quoted By:

>>110318836
Also don’t worry you didn’t come off as an ass.
I genuinely wasn’t sure if what I was trying to say was coming across.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 21:39:17 No.110319024 Report

Quoted By: >>110319051

>>110318975
Over the years i've found a funny distinction in DC stories:
If Batman is acting shadier than usual in the Justice League stories, then Wonder Woman is involved somehow.
Ironically If Wonder Woman is acting shadier than usual, THEN Superman is involved.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 21:40:49 No.110319051 Report

Quoted By:

>>110319024
It's the bad cop x good cop syndrome.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 21:51:56 No.110319283 Report

Quoted By: >>110319309

>>110318848

That scene sounds kind of iffy but plausible for Batman as a character. Like he has it in him to go too far, he sort of maybe wants to go too far, but he has the self control and morals to keep himself from doing thus. Where as it's just not in Clark's character to go WANT that. Actions speak louder than words and all, and so neither should ever go that far, but what's deep in Bruce's heart shouldn't really be what's in Clark's heart.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 21:53:11 No.110319309 Report

Quoted By:

>>110319283
They were also in a state of urgency, so Batman was utterly and above petty bullshit.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 21:54:12 No.110319331 Report

Quoted By: >>110319609

>>110315498
No prison could hold zod. How do you stop a super powered mass murderer who is committed to continue killing all squishy mortal humans he finds?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 21:56:47 No.110319384 Report

Quoted By: >>110319594 >>110320747

>>110317804
Depends on how you handle it. Like if Zod's higher strength came at a cost of wrecking his body and he decided he didnt care and was going to go out killing as many as possible.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 22:01:46 No.110319467 Report

Quoted By:

>>110318744
I dont remember an interrogation, but i certainly remember Supes about to fry President Luthor with bats telling him he'd look the other way.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 22:07:02 No.110319594 Report

Quoted By:

>>110319384
I actually love the idea that Kryptonians are not naturally born and are just birthed in pods which begs the question how they are going to do Supergirl and Argo City.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 22:07:30 No.110319609 Report

Quoted By: >>110319757 >>110321020

>>110319331
Why do you think this adresses any of the points in my post? Did you mislink?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 22:09:19 No.110319652 Report

Quoted By:

>>110314909
SPBP. This is it. It's a terrible fucking story structure.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 22:13:58 No.110319757 Report

Quoted By: >>110321020

>>110319609
No, idiot snyderhacks like him just regurgitate lines when they're confronted with people who can actually form independent thoughts.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 22:14:54 No.110319780 Report

Quoted By:

>>110314808
>Why was Zod's death so controversial?
Because he was a sworn agent of the united states treasury

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 22:19:35 No.110319884 Report

Quoted By: >>110320144

>>110318099
>The way it happened was indeed goofy as fuck. You're right about that.
The aftermath was goofy as fuck too. After he kills Zod, he screams like a girl, Lois comes in and sucks his dick and in the very next scene he's playing up the big blue boy scout routine with the army general.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 22:32:26 No.110320144 Report

Quoted By: >>110320242

>>110319884
Oh yeah. Lois uses her magic teleport to plot convenient location ability and then they make out in the grave of a city that Snyder took special care to destroy in a way that would convey just how brutal and bleak the situation was. Couldn't be more tone deaf if you stabbed out his eardrums.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 22:37:21 No.110320242 Report

Quoted By: >>110320289

>>110320144
People look for companionship and comfort in such moments, anon.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 22:38:43 No.110320275 Report

Quoted By:

>>110314808
His main mistake was to make Superman a jerk the whole movie. The easier way to fix it, was to make all premonitions and apocaliptic future under the idea "if Zod won".
After Zod was killed we discover we were predicting the whole time what Superman could become. The Zod's death would be more shocking, and we maybe see Superman with questionable means to achieve good.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 22:39:30 No.110320289 Report

Quoted By: >>110320303

>>110320242
It's not framed that way. It's not two people coping with grief through intimacy. It's framed like these two hot people who just need to hook up like everything is fun and awesome.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 22:40:08 No.110320303 Report

Quoted By: >>110320470

>>110320289
Come on, anon. Be reasonable. It's the first.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 22:49:50 No.110320470 Report

Quoted By: >>110320488

>>110320303
No, it isn't. Framing matters. Framing is central to the language of film.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 22:50:45 No.110320488 Report

Quoted By:

>>110320470
They had just escaped from certain death when that kissed happened, and then Superman flew to fight Zod.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 22:54:16 No.110320555 Report

Quoted By:

>>110315605
>Nah, regret gives pretty good reasoning to never do it again.
It relies heavily on the audience being aware that Superman supposedly never kills.

It doesn’t establish it in the movie, nor does Clark express any profound empathy with Zod for him to regret killing him. Nor does Jonathan actually teaches him a no kill rule, rather he teaches him to hide and fear for his secret.

It’s not earned. Plain and simple. Would have been perfectly fine if he sent him to the Phantom Zone like originally intended. And then have a montage of him saving people and gaining their trust.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 22:55:47 No.110320584 Report

Quoted By: >>110321832

>>110315822
That’s DC blowing it’s load and not building Batman up, rather rushing to deconstruct and reconstruct him. It’s rushed, just like the movies.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 23:00:53 No.110320708 Report

Quoted By: >>110321832

>>110318507
>but since it's written by the Coen brothers
No. The book was already a subversion

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 23:02:27 No.110320743 Report

Quoted By:

>>110318294
>Fuck, in the New 52 Batman was older than Superman and they acted like he was a mentor of sorts a lot of times. I didn't see anyone complaining about that shit.
Yes they did. Batman being older than a character that literally predates him is gay. And they dropped it for a reason

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 23:02:41 No.110320747 Report

Quoted By: >>110320814 >>110321030

>>110319384
This.

Spin it that Zod hasn't adjusted to a yellow sun enough to control his powers accordingly, and his body becomes more unstable as he uses his powers.

Kal begs him to stop as they fight, leading Zod into a desert. Zod yells that he doesn't need to be fixed, he is the perfect warrior.

Eventually Zod begins to go nuclear, Clark grabs him and flies him up into the sky and Zod implodes, lighting up the sky, and turning some of the sand into glass from the heat. Supes survives, crashing into the desert, but his suit is tattered. He gets major survivors guilt and blames himself for Zod dying.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 23:05:32 No.110320814 Report

Quoted By: >>110321030

>>110320747
>Kal begs him to stop as they fight, leading Zod into a desert. Zod yells that he doesn't need to be fixed, he is the perfect warrior.
>Eventually Zod begins to go nuclear, Clark grabs him and flies him up into the sky and Zod implodes, lighting up the sky, and turning some of the sand into glass from the heat. Supes survives, crashing into the desert, but his suit is tattered. He gets major survivors guilt and blames himself for Zod dying.
You changed so Superman can look as a big compassionate-savior and too-hard-on-himself type of guy. None of it is his blame too. Superman's hands is completely clean from the whole ordeal.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 23:15:06 No.110321020 Report

Quoted By: >>110321108 >>110322468

>>110319609
>>110319757
Like you said, zod already killed a bunch of people and he had no plans to ever stop. What was superman supposed to do given the circumstances? Sing a song to him? You cant jail him, you cant fight him forever? How was he supposed to stop an evil blood lusted kryptonion that could make humankind extinct with his bare fists.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 23:15:46 No.110321030 Report

Quoted By: >>110322078

>>110320747
>>110320814
Not gonna lie, id rather have had that as the ending of the whole movie. Like Synders Superman is one that is scary as hell and Batman was right at the start about Supes being possibly unhinged. Add in that whole flash back from Flash ligerally saying dont let lois die or we are fucked kind of points in that same direction.

Plus I thought it weord how Supes was supposed to be a bridge between Krypton and Earth since he is of both worlds but next scene he pretty much burns the whole damn bridge that Krypton has.

For another question why was Nars not deemed a suitable candidate for terraforming by Zod and co.?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 23:18:57 No.110321108 Report

Quoted By: >>110321156

>>110321020
Put him back in the Phantom Zone. You know, like in the source material.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 23:21:42 No.110321156 Report

Quoted By:

>>110321108
What source material? In one he was killed with gold kryptonite, and in the other he was thrown in a death pit.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 26 Sep 2019 23:31:35 No.110321349 Report

Quoted By: >>110322501

>>110314820
Supes litterally told Zod to stop.

Several times.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 27 Sep 2019 00:00:03 No.110321832 Report

Quoted By:

>>110320708
Yes, and who better than to adapt it into screenplay than the brothers.

>>110320584
It's rushed for sure but that does not automatically mean they are all bad.
And the whole "make make more films than one to blow a load" mentality isn't necessary for the introduction of Batman in BvS (which is technically a sequel of Man of Steel concluding with the Justice League film which all utilized Superman as a central figure in the story) and shouldn't be a rule in making comic book films.
It was all laid out in there for the audience to literally see the state Batman was in, it doesn't need a filler film of its own.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 27 Sep 2019 00:02:08 No.110321867 Report

Quoted By:

>>110314808
Because Superman doesn't kill and it comes after all the destruction porn of the Metropilis fight where Superman didn't give a fuck about all the innocent people dying around them but then is suddenly heartbroken at having to kill a genocidal monster.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 27 Sep 2019 00:14:30 No.110322078 Report

Quoted By: >>110322635

>>110321030
Superman's fault here is that he struggles in essentially becoming the world's first superhero seeing as how he isn't trained in anything.
He even goes soul searching for a time and taking odd jobs here and there.

>Supes is the bridge
Pretty sure that emotion soured when he meets the first Kryptonian.
I like to think that Kal bears no ill-will for Krypton but understands that they "had their chance" and that Earth is more his home.
Kryptonians are pretty much the baddies anyways that practically invaded other planets to mold them into New Kryptons.

>Mars not deemed suitable
Zod and his lieutenants were led to Earth, thus claiming it as their own after seeing it as habitable.
It is simple as that.
Why would Zod, in all of his Kryptonian pride, ever acquiesce or compromise something he thought would make a perfect home for New Krypton?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 27 Sep 2019 00:36:39 No.110322468 Report

Quoted By:

>>110321020
Nothing in my post is implying Superman shouldn't kill Zod you simpleton. Read it again.
>>110315498
The point is that the only thing that's objectively different between this death and the other hundreds Superman has witnessed firsthand while crashing through buildings with Zod, is that this death would have been an on-screen death. It's fucking stupid that this specific instance is what pushes him over the edge. Kill Zod because "he's never going to stop", don't kill him because he was going for that one family, make it an actual choice and not a fucking cartoon if you think you're being so smart.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 27 Sep 2019 00:38:17 No.110322501 Report

Quoted By:

>>110321349
There's a big middle ground of potential solutions between Steven Universe and the Punisher.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 27 Sep 2019 00:41:20 No.110322574 Report

Quoted By:

>>110317892
humans no kill humans and aliens no kill aliens
anything else is fair game

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 27 Sep 2019 00:44:26 No.110322635 Report

Quoted By: >>110322679 >>110322750

>>110322078
>He even goes soul searching for a time and taking odd jobs here and there.
>for a time
15 fucking years. And his character doesn't develop one bit until he meets Lois and Jor-El at the end of that period. This is why this character doesn't feel human, fucker spends 15 years around the common man and there's nothing that happens that's worth telling aside from a montage? No emotional moments where he meets a normal man and understands he too, is a man? How the fuck does the fucker feel as awkward at 33 with a life worth of experience as he does at 18? Why can't he have a normal fucking conversation?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 27 Sep 2019 00:47:12 No.110322679 Report

Quoted By:

>>110322635
He was a cool loner.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 27 Sep 2019 00:48:18 No.110322698 Report

Quoted By:

>>110315498
BvS deals with Superman's collateral damage though?
I've always liked it when is Superman feeling guilty that he couldn't save everyone while he was fighting a foe that is equal his strength.
That in his attempt in trying to stop a villain, everyone demonizes him for not saving every single one of the civilians from the destruction.
Clark is devastated in BvS that it almost felt pathetic but was purely in reason to be.

> why is saving these 4 the thing that pushes him to kill?
Because it is by his literal own hands, that enough is enough
That in a matter of mere minutes Zod was beating the ever living shit out of him with all his might and once he got the upper hand by restraining Zod, he still wanted to take whatever minuscule thing he could from Clark out of pure spite.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 27 Sep 2019 00:50:56 No.110322750 Report

Quoted By:

>>110322635
He is a man that has to struggle to restrain himself every day of his life and stay low as best he can, that if by rearing his head to the world he would be scrutinized for every little action he would take then on.

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