/sci/ - Science & Math » Thread #11210532

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Determinism vs Free Will boogaloo

Anonymous Sun 08 Dec 21:49:12 2019 No.11210532 View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>11210541 >>11210622 >>11210683

Get in here anons and comment on pic related and duke it out and add something else if it is relevant . Are you team free will or team determinism

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 08 Dec 2019 21:52:02 No.11210541 Report

Quoted By: >>11210547

>>11210532
team both now fuck off LOL

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 08 Dec 2019 21:54:56 No.11210547 Report

Quoted By: >>11210570

>>11210541
oh dear why so salty anon

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 08 Dec 2019 22:01:58 No.11210570 Report

Quoted By:

>>11210547
because i was born sprinting in desperation towards any information i can keep hold of and now i'm burned out on stupid, need huge points congested into bite size sentences to play with

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Dec 2019 22:06:18 No.11210582 Report

Quoted By: >>11210588

>the future does not pre-exist
How is that relevant in a discussion about free will? If I write a computer program thats counts to 100, the 100 count does not "pre-exist," but when I execute the program it can do nothing but count to 100.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 08 Dec 2019 22:08:16 No.11210588 Report

Quoted By: >>11210591 >>11210597 >>11210683 >>11211399

>>11210582
We can function against our programming. We program ourselves if we happen to be aware enough.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 08 Dec 2019 22:09:51 No.11210591 Report

Quoted By:

>>11210588

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Dec 2019 22:14:08 No.11210597 Report

Quoted By: >>11210602 >>11211676

>>11210588
Whether someone believes what you stated there or not, it does not address what I said, about arguing that the "future does not pre-exist." You can believe both that we are subject to our own "programming," or that we can "function against" it, while either believing or not believing that the future "pre-exists." Something being inevitable doesn't necessarily have to be interpreted as already existing. Seems like more of a thought exercise on how time functions and not free will.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Dec 2019 22:15:37 No.11210602 Report

Quoted By:

>>11210597
The destination is inevitable not the path?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Dec 2019 22:24:30 No.11210622 Report

Quoted By: >>11210633 >>11210634 >>11210638

>>11210532
Question for determinists. If someone who's determined to prove he has free will simulate our universe knowing the starting point of our universe and all of physics. Why wouldn't he with acess to this simulation be able to break what he was predetermined to do? And if the simulation can perfectly predetermine what he thinks as he sees the simulation and determine what he will do as he sees himself in his simulation. What is keeping him from breaking from the path the simulation has set for him?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Dec 2019 22:28:38 No.11210633 Report

Quoted By: >>11210638 >>11210639 >>11210683

>>11210622
Him creating the simulation and reacting to it is already predetermined in the sense that he will only react one way. The simulation will also include his simulated self making his own simulation and reacting the same way and so on and so forth.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 08 Dec 2019 22:28:46 No.11210634 Report

Quoted By:

>>11210622
Because he was predetermined to solve then break it?

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 08 Dec 2019 22:30:29 No.11210638 Report

Quoted By:

>>11210633
>>11210622
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKpFFD7aX3c

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Dec 2019 22:30:33 No.11210639 Report

Quoted By: >>11210650

>>11210633
>Yes. But this implies the simulation can tell him something that will make him want to stick on the course the calculation has set for him. If the simulation says X will do y he can just do z instead.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Dec 2019 22:34:37 No.11210650 Report

Quoted By: >>11210656

>>11210639
His simulated self will also do the same thing in reaction to the simulation he creates. The original person cannot react to the simulation in anyway his simulated self does not because they are the same and the respective simulations they react to will be the same.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Dec 2019 22:36:52 No.11210656 Report

Quoted By: >>11210663 >>11210665 >>11211081

>>11210650
Again what kind of thing could someone possibly see in such a simulation that they couldn't just defy? "x will react in y way after seeing his future" what's keeping x from just contradicting the simulations dictates?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Dec 2019 22:41:16 No.11210663 Report

Quoted By: >>11210667

>>11210656
It's not that the person can't defy it, it's that him defying it is already predetermined.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Dec 2019 22:42:06 No.11210665 Report

Quoted By:

>>11210656
nigga do you not understand the significance of the infinity mirror image I posted? It doesn't matter how far he gets out ahead of it, because it is still in the system, he ever deviated from it

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Dec 2019 22:42:48 No.11210667 Report

Quoted By:

>>11210663
This. "Defying" makes no sense as a concept.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Dec 2019 22:53:46 No.11210683 Report

Quoted By: >>11210721 >>11211686

>>11210532
>>11210588
>>11210633

free will vs determinism, read determinism vs fatalism.
free will implies metaphysics, fatalism implies an unchangeable fate, determinism merely implies cause and effect.
you will never be beyond the causal loop, per se, but you will be able to understand, and thus control everything else to your programmed liking. granted, you would have to know literally everything to a perfect degree, what with how chaotic the universe is.
ultimately, determinism is a less idiotic form of what the average brainlet thinks free will is.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Dec 2019 23:11:50 No.11210721 Report

Quoted By: >>11210730 >>11211081

>>11210683
This, Christ.

These are probably the most widely misunderstood concepts in pop science. Retards gobble it up - as if determinism and "free will" as we experience it are mutually exclusive.
"Chaos" is also deterministic for that matter, like you said.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDek6cYijxI

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 08 Dec 2019 23:17:13 No.11210730 Report

Quoted By:

>>11210721
So exactly what Bodhi said it is both

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 09 Dec 2019 00:04:14 No.11210843 Report

Quoted By:

we live in a two faced Existence, there is cause and effect but there is also the Observer that partakes in it, if a person knew everything and every possibility there is, do you think they could not change their “future” outcome? while people focus on the two extremes, focus on the middle point of both.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Mon 09 Dec 2019 00:04:20 No.11210844 Report

Quoted By: >>11211412

bumping for gnosis

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 09 Dec 2019 01:48:52 No.11211081 Report

Quoted By:

>>11210721
There is already a word for this, compatibilism.

>>11210656
No one is addressing that you are right, he could defy the prediction.

The man can predict the future using the simulation, so causality has already been broken, and thus determinism.

The fact that we can have thought experiments about non-deterministic realities (ex. religion) does not prove that our own reality is non-deterministic.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Mon 09 Dec 2019 03:10:01 No.11211268 Report

Quoted By:

nu /sci/ can't even weigh on this kek, this board is just hacks

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 09 Dec 2019 03:59:13 No.11211399 Report

Quoted By:

>>11210588
Self-modifying code is still deterministic.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Mon 09 Dec 2019 04:09:15 No.11211412 Report

Quoted By:

>>11210844

Anonymous

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Anonymous Mon 09 Dec 2019 06:38:18 No.11211676 Report

Quoted By:

>>11210597
>Seems like more of a thought exercise on how time functions and not free will.
LOL oh anon you are so on track it's not even funny. Are you aware though? It does not seem so.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Mon 09 Dec 2019 06:47:11 No.11211686 Report

Quoted By:

>>11210683
>free will implies metaphysics
the fuck? free will implies awareness of the elements and variables at play in the universe as well as their effects and consequences over an extended period of tiem as well as a desire to interfere with said elements and variables in an attempt to make this fucked up place hospitable to our emotional liking. Why the fuck did you bring metaphysics into this shit?

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