/sci/ - Science & Math » Thread #10298130

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Anonymous Tue 15 Jan 12:39:00 2019 No.10298130 View Reply Original Report

Give me secular evidence for survival of the self after brain death.
Biocentrism,quantum immortality,
Just quote science and not a religious book

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Jan 2019 12:56:25 No.10298150 Report

Quoted By: >>10298207 >>10298228

>>10298130
The best you're going to find is a dmt trip. To be clear, that will not serve as evidence. But if you want to convince yourself, that's how to do it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Jan 2019 13:39:47 No.10298197 Report

Quoted By: >>10298214

>>10298130

Your birth is engulfed by the same amnesia you trust when inferring that you did not exist before birth. You should deem your birth as fanciful as "past lives" if you are thinking in good faith.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Jan 2019 13:46:01 No.10298207 Report

Quoted By:

>>10298150
Does pineal gland dmt count?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Jan 2019 13:49:40 No.10298214 Report

Quoted By: >>10298224 >>10298230

>>10298197
Is it possible that sentient beings are co-eternal with the universe?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Jan 2019 13:55:48 No.10298224 Report

Quoted By:

>>10298214

Yes.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Jan 2019 13:56:32 No.10298228 Report

Quoted By: >>10302097 >>10309353

>>10298150
>Lol if you fuck up your brain you’ll think nonsense

Good logic.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Jan 2019 13:57:34 No.10298230 Report

Quoted By: >>10298240 >>10298564 >>10299725

>>10298214
No. Consciousness requires complex substrate that could not exist initially and will eventually be destroyed by entropy.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Jan 2019 14:01:46 No.10298240 Report

Quoted By: >>10298249 >>10298564

>>10298230
What if we're net really sentient?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Jan 2019 14:03:21 No.10298242 Report

Quoted By: >>10298253 >>10298262

>>10298130
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse

If this is true then it's not only possible, but inevitable, that the exact molecular pattern which forms the brain which defines you as you will form again at some point, in some way. This means that if you're able to comprehend this fact, you'll at some point contemplate it even after your death. The people who don't understand will do the same of course but they won't notice it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Jan 2019 14:07:09 No.10298248 Report

Quoted By: >>10298250

>>10298130
>quantum immortality,
x------D

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Jan 2019 14:07:27 No.10298249 Report

Quoted By: >>10298255 >>10298564

>>10298240
It is intuitively obvious that we are. Denying that you experience is self-refuting.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Jan 2019 14:07:36 No.10298250 Report

Quoted By:

>>10298248
I fail to understand

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Jan 2019 14:08:28 No.10298253 Report

Quoted By:

>>10298242
Nope. That’d be a different person, not you.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Jan 2019 14:08:40 No.10298255 Report

Quoted By: >>10299373 >>10307123

>>10298249
What if contradiction is the essence of truth?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Jan 2019 14:11:21 No.10298262 Report

Quoted By: >>10301972

>>10298242
How do i re-spawn in a better life than this one?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Jan 2019 14:13:00 No.10298267 Report

Quoted By: >>10298272 >>10298316

>>10298130
Gradual mind uploading where you slowly replace 1 neuron by a simulated neuron while you stay conscious and gradually go from physical to digital.

In this way your biological brain will be dead however "you, the survival of the self" will continue on because there is no break of consciousness during the transfer.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Jan 2019 14:14:12 No.10298272 Report

Quoted By: >>10298282 >>10298304

>>10298267
I would argue that we “die” every time we sleep. I see no difference.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Jan 2019 14:18:25 No.10298282 Report

Quoted By: >>10298395

>>10298272
There is no true break of consciousness during sleep. I agree with you. But the reason you consider yourself the same person is because there is no true break of consciousness during your sleep.

For example if I say I upload your consciousness to a computer and then I will shoot your biological body in the head. You would see it as murder while your copy lives on due to a break in consciousness.

However if the mind upload is done very gradually while you are conscious and a neuron gets replaced one by one by a simulated digital neuron then you will not notice any difference or consciousness break during the transition.

When you have 1% of your brain digitized you'll just sit there doing whatever not noticing anything. Same with 10% then 50% 90% and eventually 100%. You never noticed any difference in your consciousness.

Therefor it is truly a survival of the "self" after biological death.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Jan 2019 14:22:32 No.10298304 Report

Quoted By:

>>10298272
What if youre sleep deprived?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Jan 2019 14:25:12 No.10298316 Report

Quoted By: >>10298333

>>10298267
>replace 1 neuron by a simulated neuron while you stay conscious

wtf is this bullshit even supposed to mean

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Jan 2019 14:30:10 No.10298333 Report

Quoted By: >>10299194 >>10303094

>>10298316
When you bump your head between 10,000 and a million neuron dies. Yet you still consider yourself the same person as before you bumped your head.

Thus if you would connect your brain to some contraption that would read the entire content of a single neuron. Then simulate that single neuron digitally while still serving the function of the biological neuron (e.g. still sending signals to the other neurons around it through a connection between the biological brain and the digital interface.) Then you'll be able to replace every neuron one by one and replace them with digital ones while you are still staying conscious the entire process.

So you will never even notice the digitization of your brain as the function of every single neuron will be replaced by digital ones over time.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Jan 2019 15:03:43 No.10298395 Report

Quoted By: >>10298559

>>10298282
Except for the fact that neural connections actively change.
It's like saying "If I slowly replace every person at the train station with a robot, you won't notice."
How would you do this? People are constantly moving from place to place. New people come in. Others leave.
Read up on Buddhism before spreading this BS.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Jan 2019 16:25:31 No.10298537 Report

Quoted By:

Bump

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Jan 2019 16:36:59 No.10298559 Report

Quoted By: >>10298567

>>10298395
I wanted to argue your points but then you brought up buddhism which isn't based on secular scientific beliefs so I won't even bother.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Jan 2019 16:38:09 No.10298564 Report

Quoted By: >>10303103

>>10298230
>>10298240
>>10298249
These arguments aren't gonna help you change your mind on anything. You don't know what consciousness is, so stop acting like it. Any argument as to whether or not it survives after death assumes that consciousness is real and not just a feedback loop caused by the way our brains are structured. And any affirmation of self surviving after death implies mind-body dualism, which has no hard evidence for or against either. I know you're probably just stoned and having a big think, but our understanding just isn't there yet. Or at least mine clearly isn't, I'd love for someone to prove me wrong

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Jan 2019 16:38:29 No.10298567 Report

Quoted By: >>10305868

>>10298559
Self is an illusion homie

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_science

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Jan 2019 17:07:45 No.10298622 Report

Quoted By: >>10299217 >>10303530

>>10298130
Here is my little theory .

When you die natural DMT is released and you begin seeing happy shit .Same moment when you die your concept of time slows down so it feels mega long . And it feels like a eternity .So the couple minutes you spend dying you feel like you had a eternal life in heaven or baka . No evidence for it but meh .

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Jan 2019 21:22:22 No.10299194 Report

Quoted By:

>>10298333
how the fuck is a simulated, physically not existing neuron supposed to send physical signals

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Jan 2019 21:29:01 No.10299217 Report

Quoted By: >>10299225 >>10305871 >>10312996

>>10298622
What if someone dies instantly (nuke explosion, etc.) preventing DMT release?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Jan 2019 21:32:20 No.10299225 Report

Quoted By: >>10299378

>>10299217
Quantum immortality,then?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Jan 2019 22:31:56 No.10299373 Report

Quoted By:

>>10298255
it is

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Jan 2019 22:33:29 No.10299378 Report

Quoted By:

>>10299225
You’re reaching because you’re afraid.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 16 Jan 2019 01:08:34 No.10299725 Report

Quoted By:

>>10298230
Entropy can be ignored in enclosed systems, whose to say the universe is not itself an enclosed system?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 16 Jan 2019 01:12:53 No.10299732 Report

Quoted By: >>10299899 >>10305892 >>10307036

>ITT a bunch of troubled undergrads post their philosophical coping mechanisms

Anonymous

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Anonymous Wed 16 Jan 2019 02:36:26 No.10299899 Report

Quoted By: >>10301036

>>10298130
Just a mindwank...
>you die in some way ("death" is pretty hard (if not impossible) to define physically)
>you don't perceive time anymore
>universe ends in whatever way and restarts
>after n-number of restarts (some outlandish probability but you're timeless in the state of non existence so who cares) the universe arranges the particles that made up your brain at the time of death in the exact same way, while rearranging the cause of your death
>from other's point of view, you die n-times
>from your point of view (i.e. only in a state of enabled perception) you are immortal and infinitely lucky, since your "consciousness" stops and restarts in a planck time in a variant of the universe where you miraculously survive.

>>10299732
Non-existence sounds comfy, though.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 16 Jan 2019 14:11:00 No.10301036 Report

Quoted By: >>10301427

>>10299899
Your mindwank already exists.
Quantum immortality

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 16 Jan 2019 17:12:36 No.10301427 Report

Quoted By: >>10311813

>>10301036
You do realize Everett's MWI isn't actually provable.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 16 Jan 2019 20:19:32 No.10301968 Report

Quoted By:

>>10298130
Jump off a tall building?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 16 Jan 2019 20:21:25 No.10301972 Report

Quoted By:

>>10298262
You can respawn but you get the same shitty life.

Case closed.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 16 Jan 2019 20:26:30 No.10301980 Report

Quoted By:

>>10298130
Th soul, and the afterlife, and matters spiritual, are not amenable to exploration via the scientific method. You can't really even determine the existence or non-existence of any of it that way.

Sorry, you asked for the impossible. If matters spiritual are actually of interest to you, you're going to have to approach them through some other route.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 16 Jan 2019 20:48:03 No.10302063 Report

Quoted By: >>10302066 >>10302841 >>10302847

>>10298130
I'll have a bash at this. (pt1)
As a few other beautiful anons have already stated, nobody knows what consciousness is. It does appear that attempting to define it within our current comprehension is somewhat like trying to bite one's own teeth; it gets in its own way. What we do know about consciousness however, is that it derives information. That is to say quite basically that we must assume there is an informative value of consciousness, otherwise we are obviously debating nothing here.

We are happy enough to describe a person's brain in a living body as having consciousness, but we are less content to say that the neurons themselves "have" consciousness. This is quite a strange situation to be in- we now have established an wholly unclear threshold in terms of matter and its arrangement which (probably among other options) either gives rise to consciousness, is consciousness itself, or has consciousness but that consciousness is not used by it.

I'm not convinced that any of the above options make much sense to me, what I think does follow more logically is the acceptance that consciousness (whether or not it is an objectively real thing) certainly does not exist as we think-we-know it; we'd have to be able to bite our own teeth, so to speak again.

To reduce disagreement with the threshold level of consciousness mentioned above, it seems safer to assume that everything is conscious AND consciousness.

If consciousness is information as I suggested at the beginning of this post then that makes some sense within the grounds of physics. Quantum physics has established that the universe as we see it is dues to probability "strings" which are iterations of different wave states either controlled by a hidden factor (yada-yada-higher-dimensions) or that have generated truly randomly.
(cont'd)

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 16 Jan 2019 20:49:08 No.10302066 Report

Quoted By: >>10302841

>>10298130
>>10302063

(cont'd 2/2)

So within the lines of this argument it follows that consciousness may never be accurately known as it occludes itself strangely, however there can be established arbitrary levels to it. Simply, the greater the access to information a thing that thinks itself conscious has, the more strongly that thing can be said to be conscious.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 16 Jan 2019 20:56:57 No.10302097 Report

Quoted By: >>10305400

>>10298228
It is produced at birth and death

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 17 Jan 2019 01:50:56 No.10302841 Report

Quoted By: >>10302847

>>10298130

>>10302063
>>10302066

(pt3)
I realise I haven't addressed the prospect of 'self' in your post, soz Opie. I'll have a bash at that now.

In my above posts I implied that consciousness is required if any information is to be said to exist; something must exist as the 'reciever/interpretor' either with primacy to, or simultaneously with any information able to be processed (otherwise it could not be said that anything was a thing at all, and this discussion would be abjectly pointless).

The simplest form of information that i can think of is expressible mathematically, and perhaps even is mathematics itself as that's not a language we discovered, merely the one we named.

In order for an entity to be sufficiently conscious to be called 'alive', I suggest that this is determined by their ability to recognise the existence of the number one. Without comprehension of what '1' is, then no further concepts such as 'self' or 'other' can be established as the entity would be indeterminable from its context, and no self that we can rationalise would exist.

How should we discuss the persistence of the self? Perhaps by considering what forms of information can move at the fastest possible
speed; light and gravitational waves.

Using light waves and a detector, perhaps in the form of a series of satellite images we can establish a particular Self moving around a bustling city by identifying their informative characteristics; height, gait, clothing worn, hair colour etc. By matching the iterations of that form through each snapshot we conclude that a discrete person has moved.
In the same way, gravitational waves which do not require a line of sight would convey that a particular unit of information is in motion in a particular way if we were to measure them over time.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 17 Jan 2019 01:52:26 No.10302847 Report

Quoted By:

>>10298130

>>10302063
>>10302841

(pt4)
After all, as discussed in the first post, consciousness seems to just appear (or perhaps more accurately be identified) at a certain level of complexity in a physical system perfectly naturally. It is housed at particular points within that system, commonly thought of as brains, but specifically at any measured point in that system because information being processed, or interacting in any way is a function of consciousness.

It is our comprehension, reluctance or inability to recognise long-term that because information-consciousness can be arbitrarily established at any level simply by analysing the other units of information in a system and using them to delineate a particular entity as it interacts with its surroundings, the Self is in fact just as omnipresent as there are discrete points in existence.

Non-Secular views probably posit that this is Love with a capital 'l', which we can quite easily connote with compassion, or empathy. I suggest that the above are simply the ability to put oneself in another's shoes, so to speak, or the ability to recognise the self in another, and that self-other distinction really is simply a line, drawn quite arbitrarily in the sand.

It's a bit messy, but I think that's nearly a successful secular argument for persistence of self.
Thoughts?

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 17 Jan 2019 03:18:21 No.10303001 Report

Quoted By: >>10303114 >>10310365 >>10312620

>>10298130

Just because religions are demonstrably silly, it does not mean that materialism is true and that death implies oblivion. There is a tremendous amount of empirical evidence that suggests that our mind or consciousness continues past the point of physical death and that there is an infinitely amazing afterlife awaiting unconditionally around the corner of a ceased heartbeat for everyone.

Easily digestible tier:

https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/day-i-died/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwyVFW9kT8k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw3oaNUR1iI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhANf60Y4Nk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W-PLmMwl2o
https://vimeo.com/7464750
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PX2x0FxDTs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nzz-nG5pjFg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnoIf2NwaRY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq9KrYEeNe4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5or66dI6akU

World-leading research tier:

http://www.horizonresearch.org/Uploads/Journal_Resuscitation__2_.pdf
https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc799144/m2/1/high_res_d/vol21-no1-5.pdf
https://www.amazon.com/Science-Near-Death-Experience-Consciousness-Survives/dp/1594773564/
https://www.amazon.com/Self-Does-Not-Die-Experiences/dp/0997560800/
https://www.amazon.com/Art-Dying-Peter-Fenwick/dp/0826499236/
https://trans4mind.com/spiritual/Does-consciousness.pdf

In essence, the purpose of these lives is to learn to be an infinitely loving and kind person despite the fact that the world is demonstrably shitty and it is really hard to develop character here. But the person who is infinitely happy, kind, loving, accepting, and forgiving while they are being tortured, to take the ultimate example, will quite figuratively explode from happiness in heaven. So use your challenges as gifts to develop your character. After all, you had the multiverse as your smorgasbord while you were still in paradise, and yet you chose this life; being this character, in this society, in this world.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 17 Jan 2019 03:31:43 No.10303019 Report

Quoted By:

>>10298130
The problem with trying to prove this is we don’t understand what life itself actually is. How is it possible that a sequence of electrochemical pulses travelling through a series of cells, them all being made from non living atoms, allows what is essentially a large structure of cells to gain sentience? How are we, one person(s) made of trillions of tiny cellular life forms, in turn made of countless non living atoms able to function as one ‘living’ organism?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 17 Jan 2019 04:29:23 No.10303094 Report

Quoted By:

>>10298333
>When you bump your head between 10,000 and a million neuron dies.
Soure?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 17 Jan 2019 04:35:20 No.10303103 Report

Quoted By: >>10303157 >>10303227

>>10298564
In order to conclude anything, something has to be assumed. The only thing you can be sure of is that you are concious, because even if your entire reality is simulated, you are still here to experience it. I think we can reasonably assume that conciousness is a real thing and that it is somehow separate from matter. Anything beyond this is speculation.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 17 Jan 2019 04:41:20 No.10303114 Report

Quoted By: >>10304790

>>10303001

Not OP, but I want to extend sincere thanks for sharing that treasure trove of information -and shared it should certainly be. I have just finished reading the Guest Editorial on Life After Death, and feel almost guilty connoting such a materialist phrase as 'treasure trove' with something actually of value, haha! Again, many thanks, kind anon.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 17 Jan 2019 04:41:51 No.10303115 Report

Quoted By: >>10308109

>>10298130
Google Poncaré Recurrence

You have an infinite amount of time and a finite number of combinations of matter. We're all going to end up in this exact situation eventually purely through enough dice rolls.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 17 Jan 2019 05:17:34 No.10303157 Report

Quoted By: >>10303227

>>10303103
>I think we can reasonably assume that conciousness is a real thing and that it is somehow separate from matter.
It's not a reasonable assumption it's a wild guess but if you wanna go with it, then anything seperate from the matter (ie consciousness like you're saying) could exist without the matter. Whether it be in a computer, clone, or random emergence of the metaphysical.

I disagree with you because we can't make assumptions that particular about consciousness. We don't know for sure that it is separate from matter. It could be the result of certain interactions in the brain (a physical phenomena) or a signal being beamed into our brain from a higher dimension like a television set.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 17 Jan 2019 06:29:17 No.10303227 Report

Quoted By:

>>10303157
I agree, we should not be making so particular our assumptions about consciousness. Testing out permutations of what are essentially analogies for it however might prove useful for shedding light on future study.
If >>10303103 is right in that consciousness can exist without the matter, then what purpose does our matter serve being bound to/by it. Is this a two-way street, some kind of give and take? (/musing, mainly/)

Your point that it could be similar to a television set receiver piqued my interest.
I just began watching a TV series you may be familiar with called 'The OA' and there's a feature in it where very accurate mechanical vibration-measuring phones are inserted close to the brain. I think this is done in order to read acoustic input sent to the brain from some higher dimensions, record it, and then play it back so that observers of Near-Death Experiences could "tune into" a semblance of what passes for the other side is like.

If it is a signal-beaming-like thing, then have you (anyone) got any ideas how to test this, or any observations from experience that may support something like this being the case? There would be something like signal overlap, maybe the coincidence of matching actions/bodily processes between nearby entities.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 17 Jan 2019 10:00:45 No.10303530 Report

Quoted By:

>>10298622
Gayest theory.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 17 Jan 2019 20:31:43 No.10304790 Report

Quoted By:

>>10303114

No problem anon ^^

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 17 Jan 2019 20:40:08 No.10304815 Report

Quoted By:

>>10298130
BEGOME ORTHODGS

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 18 Jan 2019 00:27:44 No.10305400 Report

Quoted By: >>10305585

>>10302097
Why do people parrot this like it's some evidence that dmt won't fuck your brain. dmt is a very common chemical but that doesn't mean smoking it won't do irreparable damage to your brain's logic systems.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 18 Jan 2019 01:41:49 No.10305585 Report

Quoted By:

>>10305400
The logic systems?? It may change your perceptions of any experience and it may do so dramatically. The damage comes when such experiences are being improperly integrated to your post-perceptual shift. Understandable, because perceptions inform the presumed reality, and any changes in that certainly can come with risk, but it is about reintegration. Any damage done is due to poorly controlled thoughts burning their way through your neurons. Get control, be humbled, stay sane even when faaaaaar oooouuuuttttt mmmmanggg.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 18 Jan 2019 03:45:51 No.10305842 Report

Quoted By:

>>10298130
I larp in sci and have a high IQ with no education and my brain cancer gets me thinking and reading a lot.

If I understand correctly, the mass of the universe equals zero measuring units and everything is made of the same fundamental parts and they all effect each other.. So with my little brain, I think its pretty cool to think that all these things aren't really anything and that's what makes it so cool. Without writing a book about it, we're all part of the same "consciousness" if that was really a thing and when we die, we change to another part of the same form and what we thought was us goes back to the infinity that it came from. I don't know if I am projecting but , when I read between the lines of religious stuff, I can see the speaker winking back at me while nobody's paying attention. I don't see why there is a disagreement between the factions when it really boils down to the same shit. Life is a possession and to life eternal you must give up your possessions and come with me. And me is you and you are everything. Roast away.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 18 Jan 2019 03:59:15 No.10305868 Report

Quoted By:

>>10298567
/thread. If you lose a drop of blood are you the same person? If you lose a brain lobe, are you still the same person? If anything happens are you the same person? Were you ever a person? This is now a philosophy thread.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 18 Jan 2019 04:00:37 No.10305871 Report

Quoted By:

>>10299217
Lights out

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 18 Jan 2019 04:09:42 No.10305892 Report

Quoted By:

>>10299732
Relax guys. Let it happen

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 18 Jan 2019 04:16:42 No.10305908 Report

Quoted By:

>>10298130
Didn't religion invented science tho?

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 18 Jan 2019 17:18:46 No.10307036 Report

Quoted By:

>>10299732

>what is cope: the dissertation

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 18 Jan 2019 17:58:15 No.10307120 Report

Quoted By: >>10311801

>>10298130
>secular evidence

There is none. After you die you're dead. Your body rots. Whatever happens to your "soul" - noone knows what a soul even is. Whatever happens to your consciousness - probably what happens when you're ... unconscious. Your body is burned or buried unless you drown and get lost.

Everyone telling you otherwise is lying.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 18 Jan 2019 18:00:15 No.10307123 Report

Quoted By: >>10307885

>>10298255
It's not. Someone's always right, and the other one wrong. Go suck your marxist-leninist cock.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 18 Jan 2019 22:46:34 No.10307885 Report

Quoted By:

>>10307123

>the truth is never complicated

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 18 Jan 2019 23:09:25 No.10307935 Report

Quoted By:

>>10298130
What's the difference between brain death and a long coma?

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 18 Jan 2019 23:15:01 No.10307951 Report

Quoted By: >>10308801 >>10308814

>>10298130
Self is an abstraction bootstrapped up into by your limbic system as an enhancer to sexual selection. If you knew that you weren't really you, and just a temporary wave of sensory input and thought, it's not clear your desire to survive would remain. Your illusion of self is the result of billions of years of instinct. You're not really an individual, but a temporary convergence of complexity in a sea of entropy.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 19 Jan 2019 00:26:40 No.10308109 Report

Quoted By: >>10308761

>>10303115
That's only if matter is discrete. If matter is not discrete and consciousness requires the exact same configuration with the exact same matter we are fucked. This idea hunts me and I pray every day for it to be wrong.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 19 Jan 2019 05:11:15 No.10308761 Report

Quoted By:

>>10308109
Why would matter be discrete? What makes you think you're the same person you were yesterday? Your memories aren't even the same, they get slowly corrupted over time. But do you notice, most likely not.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 19 Jan 2019 05:47:12 No.10308801 Report

Quoted By:

>>10307951
bullshitIwanttobelieve.png

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 19 Jan 2019 05:47:30 No.10308802 Report

Quoted By: >>10310365

>>10298130
>Give me secular evidence for survival of the self after brain death.
There isn't any.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 19 Jan 2019 05:55:47 No.10308814 Report

Quoted By:

>>10307951
>it's not clear your desire to survive would remain
we evolved to do that very thing regardless of the logic involved
it doesn't matter how well you understand or know what is going on, your brain will freak out

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 19 Jan 2019 13:47:25 No.10309353 Report

Quoted By:

>>10298228
He's right though. If gives you no real information but a strong mushroom trip or dmt will give you a truly reflexive look at subjectivity and just how profoundly odd it is to the extent that all things become possible.

Consciousness is such an unknown element unlike anything else in the objective universe that we can make no claims about it. We dont know if it dies, if others are real, if we are eternal, dreaming or whatever. A trip will just show you that it is beyond comprehension. From that alone you cannot be certain we die anymore than you can be certain about anything to do with existence. Now i do believe we just disappear but i cannot know. In fact i hope we do because nothing is scarier than thinking you are an eternal, alone subjective with no reprieve.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 19 Jan 2019 22:14:08 No.10310365 Report

Quoted By:

>>10308802

>m-muh fundamaterialism!!

Just see >>10303001.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Jan 2019 10:55:01 No.10311801 Report

Quoted By:

>>10307120
What if we never die subjetively?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Jan 2019 11:04:05 No.10311813 Report

Quoted By:

>>10301427
I do not.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Jan 2019 11:06:53 No.10311815 Report

Quoted By: >>10311866

>>10298130
none. you're gone. you are the result of the arrangement of neurons inside your brain interacting with the world and forming memories. If that's gone, you're gone

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Jan 2019 11:52:05 No.10311866 Report

Quoted By: >>10311951

>>10311815
What if i will never be gone?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Jan 2019 12:10:58 No.10311903 Report

Quoted By:

>>10298130

Read ''Whos afraid of life after death - Neal Grossman''

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Jan 2019 12:37:08 No.10311951 Report

Quoted By: >>10311967

>>10311866
Shut the fuck up with your pseud bullshit you fucking retard

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Jan 2019 12:47:00 No.10311967 Report

Quoted By:

>>10311951
The grammar of STFU eludes me.
Can you shut the fuck down?
Or should it say shut up the fuck?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Jan 2019 18:45:29 No.10312620 Report

Quoted By: >>10312643

>>10303001
Materialism really is baloney

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Jan 2019 18:57:11 No.10312643 Report

Quoted By: >>10312906

>>10312620
>>>/x/

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Jan 2019 20:33:32 No.10312906 Report

Quoted By:

>>10312643
X should have been fused with sci long ago

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Jan 2019 20:59:03 No.10312996 Report

Quoted By: >>10313056

>>10299217
your idea of instantaneous is just an idea, there is no single "point" in time. We can comprehend smaller and bigger units of measurement of time, but there is not a pure concrete instant. So maybe the perception of self-death of any sort is dilated by such a huge factor, it lasts what we would percieve as forever

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Jan 2019 21:13:05 No.10313056 Report

Quoted By:

>>10312996
This is the DMT segregation theory

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 20 Jan 2019 23:53:31 No.10313521 Report

Quoted By:

The DMT segregation theory relies heavily on the pineal gland

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 21 Jan 2019 11:09:57 No.10314790 Report

Quoted By: >>10314858

two things have me stumped on this front
>DMT
>children who remember past lives (see the work of Dr. Ian Stevenson, Dr. Jim B. Tucker)

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 21 Jan 2019 12:00:57 No.10314858 Report

Quoted By: >>10314874

>>10314790
The book i posted adressed the past life thing and explains how karma isnt real.
It doesnt adress the pineal gland dmt connection

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 21 Jan 2019 12:10:04 No.10314874 Report

Quoted By: >>10315300 >>10315310

>>10314858
these books don't dive into that . it's simply psychologists talking to children all around the world who remember past lives and can recount facts from that past life that can be confirmed through investigation. there is no conceivable way these kids should know what they know, as they are usually around 2-6 years of age when they start talking about these past lives .

these psychologists aren't basement dwelling new age freaks, they're decorated psychologists, and the cases are very compelling

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 21 Jan 2019 16:30:16 No.10315300 Report

Quoted By:

>>10314874
Why dont i remember any past life?
Is it my first time here?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 21 Jan 2019 16:39:21 No.10315310 Report

Quoted By:

>>10314874
It’s easy for them to know. Someone told them.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 21 Jan 2019 16:48:56 No.10315321 Report

Quoted By: >>10315758

>>10298130
Dissociation and compartmentalization. Memories implanted from birth that actually map to real things. Hopi native americans claiming they came from another star system and were only being "projected" here, along with other evidence for non-local storage and processing, and the brain acting as an antenna.

I'm not too concerned with what it really is, and you shouldn't be either. Coming in here with your "gimme gimme, gimme evidence." Fuck you, how 'bout that.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Mon 21 Jan 2019 16:55:55 No.10315336 Report

Quoted By: >>10315442

>>10298130
Unfortunately, the closest thing to a non-religious argument for the "eternal permanence of the self" let's call it is metaphysical or philosophical. Which if you ask any scientist, is tantamount to a religious argument.

One thing I would highly recommend is Tolstoy's A Confession. I won't delve into it too much here. It's not long and it's accessibly written. Everyone should be able to read it, so just do that. In short, he delves into the idea of infinity, and how the hope of accessing the infinite somehow is necessary for every human being to continue his life. To connect it to science, you may think of it as Einstein's conception of an impersonal "god", or the "god" of Spinoza. Which can be thought of as just another, higher plane of reality the somehow determines what our plane looks like.

Kierkegaard's idea of the leap of faith plays into this (and Tolstoy draws on Kierkegaard's thinking heavily). It's important in order to understand the dual nature of faith and doubt. Someone with blind, unwavering faith is merely credulous. While someone who understands that with faith always comes doubt is a more rational observer. Again, to tie this into science, any time a scientist makes an educated guess, he is taking a leap of faith.

Having dispensed with that disclaimer, look to Nietzsche's conception of "eternal recurrence/return". It can't be proven or ruled out either. If you believe in a block universe/that time is just an illusion (these ideas at least border on the scientific) it's not a huge leap to then connect with the idea that it only "appears" that people "die". In reality, they start their lives all over again, and live them the exact same way from start to finish, as soon as they cease to be conscious at life's end, and repeat this process for all eternity.

If true, here is a good prescription which to live by: live your best life now, just in case you have to live it over and over again. Think of this as the Pascal's wager of physics.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 21 Jan 2019 17:35:12 No.10315442 Report

Quoted By: >>10316987

>>10315336
I have two fears. Reincarnation, and the idea that the universe will eventually loop back on itself, I'll exist at some point in that, and be tortured over and over again, infinitely.

To imagine being a child born into this world again at all, but especially at the present time, is a horrible thought.

No. I must be pruned by the algorithm and taken out of circulation. I will return to the source and if necessary, never "come" any way again.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 21 Jan 2019 19:29:40 No.10315758 Report

Quoted By:

>>10315321
I REFUSE your fuck you

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 22 Jan 2019 02:21:56 No.10316987 Report

Quoted By:

>>10315442

No one is ever forced to do anything they do not want to do. You are here right now because you explicitly want to be here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OGhi79l4Hg

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 22 Jan 2019 03:00:05 No.10317059 Report

Quoted By:

>>10298130
>Give me secular evidence

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