/sci/ - Science & Math » Thread #13335254

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Anonymous Mon 28 Jun 18:25:58 2021 No.13335254 View Reply Original Report

Even if we suppose that free will exists, what mechanisms would allow it to operate? Neurons firing in the brain in patterns predictable by physics, past experiences, genetics, and randomness aren't free will. Even a soul, if such a thing existed, wouldn't allow free will because you didn't choose that either.

Is free will literally just magic?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 28 Jun 2021 18:36:50 No.13335282 Report

Quoted By: >>13335334

Something something quantum mechanics, though that just changes "everything is not random" to "everything is slightly random."

Anonymous

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Anonymous Mon 28 Jun 2021 18:52:56 No.13335334 Report

Quoted By: >>13347548

>>13335282
randomness isn't just some magical area where free will and anything incompatible with science can exist. by all definitions it's not.
you are basically saying that you can change the probability of an event happening by just thinking which is literally a very common idea among schizophrenics. in neurology a random action potential only results in a twitch or cramp or it's just filtered. the action potentials for a decision to be made are very specific and you can't have this very specific pattern happening all the time everyday.
you are basically saying that the nonexistent soul or the undefined (You) or some magic is moving ions in and out of a neuron

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 28 Jun 2021 19:12:38 No.13335406 Report

Quoted By: >>13338435

>>13335254
As the picture suggests, free will is an illusion. I'm not sure what you mean by "is it magic?" because as your comment suggests you certainly don't believe in literal magic and you are aware that free will isn't a thing.

Are you just asking why people naturally just have an inkling that we all have free will? I don't think there's a concrete answer. Like learning anything, it takes a few exercises to understand that free will is an illusion. We didn't understand quantum mechanics until we did (to some degree) and we won't understand consciousness until we do (to some degree)

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 28 Jun 2021 21:03:59 No.13335797 Report

Quoted By: >>13341651

>>13335254
If free will doesn't exists, you're dead.
Or at least something similar.

Let me introduce you concepts... Few for you to understand better.

First is a system, system is an entity, that have some states, it know multiple states minimum.

There is action, called decision, that means, the consequence, or some action, like changing a state can be deduced from previous states.

The fact, that decision isn't made yet, or the all requirement states to make decision's aren't yet known, means, there's free will.

It's simple. Please, reconsider your freedom.

Freedom means, you can still pick. You can choose. With presence on you in it.

Freedom mean, system can make more than one decision, and doesn't have to loose the game.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 28 Jun 2021 22:13:29 No.13336054 Report

Quoted By:

>>13335254
Freewill means that's it it that decides. It like you. Or something.

Jesus

Jesus Mon 28 Jun 2021 22:20:29 No.13336084 Report

Quoted By:

>>13335254
free from what exactly, soientist?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 04:15:51 No.13336964 Report

Quoted By:

>>13335254
>Even if we suppose that free will exists, what mechanisms would allow it to operate?
The indeterminate urgrund (that which is before all determinations or conditions, philosophical chaos) that is within all being and is the ground of all being.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 04:31:12 No.13336995 Report

Quoted By:

>Even a soul, if such a thing existed, wouldn't allow free will because you didn't choose that either.
But I did.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 05:18:39 No.13337084 Report

Quoted By: >>13338514

>>13335254
The only way I'm able to see some room for a conceptualization of free will is through ignorance of your own self. Yes, perhaps you as a scientist could be able to predict every single state of a neuron in another person's brain given the sufficient technology, but you could never be the subject of this study. Knowing something about your own mind by definition changes it, and there's no way of escaping that. You will never be able to know your brain 100%, so there's always a room for ignorance or non-determinism in regards to yourself. Perhaps that's what free will is all about.

Jesus

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Jesus Tue 29 Jun 2021 05:34:08 No.13337128 Report

Quoted By:

free from what? faggots, before discoossing may be you agree upon what you discooss? fucking schizos.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 05:41:34 No.13337137 Report

Quoted By: >>13338518 >>13341651

>>13335254
Determinism is a pre-requisite for free will to exist.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 05:58:02 No.13337149 Report

Quoted By: >>13338518 >>13341651

>>13335254
another retarded faggot talking about "free will", a concept that never has or never will make sense. Fuck you.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 14:20:39 No.13338351 Report

Quoted By: >>13341651

The way I see it:

Somewhere between choosing which shirt to wear and controlling the weather, our sphere of influence ceases to exist as an individual.

I just try not to lose my mind defining the edge of said sphere.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 14:52:21 No.13338435 Report

Quoted By: >>13338717

>>13335406
>Are you just asking why people naturally just have an inkling that we all have free will?
The vast majority of people think free will exists. It's kinda crazy, when you consider there is no evidence for it other than it "feeling" like it must be true.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 15:07:24 No.13338491 Report

Quoted By: >>13341651

>>13335254
yes it's all predictable

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 15:14:34 No.13338514 Report

Quoted By: >>13338560 >>13338562 >>13341651

>>13337084
If you define it like that, sure. Problem is OP and 99% of people just say "free will", but no one defines it and then they argue two completely differebt concepts of free will. I amways use the definition "free will is the ability to have done otherwise", which is scientifically proven to be false.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 15:16:28 No.13338518 Report

Quoted By: >>13338732

>>13337137
You mean, determinism has to be false for free will to exist, right?
>>13337149
>hurr mi brain tu smol
>brain hurt=idea bad

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 15:30:10 No.13338546 Report

Quoted By: >>13338570

>>13335254
Are chaotic patterns deterministic from conception? Or do they keep on the same trajectory if undisturbed?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 15:35:05 No.13338560 Report

Quoted By: >>13338584 >>13341651

>>13338514
but this is a bit of a circular definition, isn't it? "to have done otherwise" implies having a choice between different paths during some point in the past, which is just free will again.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 15:35:54 No.13338562 Report

Quoted By: >>13338604

>>13338514
That is a completely retarded definition as even the most fervent advocate for the abilities of humans to change the world know you can`t change the past. you create a straw man impossible to defend with your ridiculous definition.
If you mean "the ability to do otherwise" then sure, but hat is not disproved by science.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 15:38:49 No.13338570 Report

Quoted By:

>>13338546
From the Wiki:
>Chaos theory is a branch of mathematics focusing on the study of chaos — dynamical systems whose apparently random states of disorder and irregularities are actually governed by underlying patterns and deterministic laws that are highly sensitive to initial conditions.
Basically, they are deterministic. But in the real world, they won't keep the same trajectory due to the complex interractions. It is theoretically possible to calculate it all, but there are so many variables at play that by the time you begin to calculate it, the thing you're trying to calculate already happened. Not to mention that our instruments are not 100% precise and by measuring itself we're adding more variables.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 15:41:25 No.13338584 Report

Quoted By: >>13338615

>>13338560
Ability to, not choice. Is it phisically possible for your brain to actually change where the electrucal impulse is going. It can't change that.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 15:47:31 No.13338604 Report

Quoted By:

>>13338562
Not changing the past, but if the time reversed and you had to make the same decision again, without knowing time reversed, is it possible to do otherwise? Or no matter how many times you reverse the clock, you'll do the same thing?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 15:51:56 No.13338615 Report

Quoted By:

>>13338584
Ability and not choice? Hmm...what does it even mean, potential? For instance, if we had done otherwise, the action wouldn't have been something we deem impossible, it would still be consistent with our knowledge of the world and with what is possible to happen. If that is the case the case, then free will really does seem to be rooted in ignorance, because the more ignorant you are about reality, the larger the set of possible actions you could have taken that wouldn't have seemed impossible. Everything would seem equality likely for someone at the extreme of ignorance.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 16:26:49 No.13338717 Report

Quoted By:

>>13338435
Nah it makes sense due to how your brain works on making decisions. Due to not being omniscient, you will essentially appear to have free will based on the fact that you cannot really accurately predict the actions of others or your own.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 16:31:16 No.13338732 Report

Quoted By: >>13338782 >>13338847

>>13338518
No, determinism must exist for free will to exist, or else your actions are arbitrary.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 16:32:35 No.13338738 Report

Quoted By: >>13339614 >>13340842

>>13335254
Free will does not and cannot exist.

When the universe (our spacetime) came into existence, the beginning and end of time already happened, and came as a block of sorts. From outside of time, there is no other way it could be.

From outside of space and time, every single moment in the book is already written. If it is already written and has already happened, how could it possibly change. We are merely progressing through the pages. It is pure determinism. Whatever is "outside" space and time already "knows" every single state and position of every single atom in the entire universe at every single nanosecond from the beginning of time through billions upon billions upon billions upon billions of years.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 16:43:23 No.13338782 Report

Quoted By:

>>13338732
Then you're using completely different definition than what I learned. How do you define determinism and free will?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 16:50:45 No.13338802 Report

Quoted By: >>13341651

What most people intuitively understand as "free will" is not the same as what is defined in these arguments about determinism VS free will. I consider this topic to be rife with sophistry as a result.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 16:57:15 No.13338823 Report

Quoted By: >>13338914 >>13339490

>>13335254
>you didn't choose that either.
That says absolutely nothing about free will. If you are offered an apple or an orange, you still can freely chose.
The same principle applies to not being able to modify your wants. Anti-free-willers expect a definition of free will barely anyone sane uses.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 16:59:30 No.13338830 Report

Quoted By:

>>13335254
I propose someone writes or cites a definiton of free will in this thread before further shitposting

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 17:04:35 No.13338847 Report

Quoted By:

>>13338732
In a sense, but I'd argue this makes the concept of free will moot in a sense. It really just demonstrates the absurdity of the concept.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 17:09:34 No.13338857 Report

Quoted By: >>13338931 >>13341656 >>13341661

Free will is a philosophical problem, not a scientific one. Technically yes, everything is determined by all of the events preceding it, but because no one has perfect access to information, we can choose to believe that we are free to choose. Basically, it doesn't matter whether we have free will or not, so we might as well take responsibility for ourselves rather than wallow in the idea that nothing we do matters because some photon hitting your eye 10 years ago set in motion a chain of events that caused you to become an incel.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 17:32:48 No.13338914 Report

Quoted By:

>>13338823
So, define free will then.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 17:38:05 No.13338931 Report

Quoted By: >>13339358

>>13338857
Yup, it's an illusion, but a comfy one.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 19:19:33 No.13339341 Report

Quoted By:

>>13335254
>Neurons firing in the brain in patterns predictable by physics
And even if it wasn't randomness isn't free will

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 19:24:53 No.13339358 Report

Quoted By:

>>13338931
It is a problematic illusion. It causes FOMO, regret, self pity, and all sorts of issues.

Understand that everything that will ever happen already HAS happened. Everything you ever do you were always going to do. Everything that ever happens to you was always going to happen to you. The date of your death is already known.

In meditative practice, the large benefit is from transcending the ego temporarily, which allows you to realize your true nature as the thing watching this movie unfold.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 19:59:03 No.13339468 Report

Quoted By: >>13339480

>>13335254
you are free to the degree you realise who you are

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 20:02:31 No.13339480 Report

Quoted By: >>13339523

>>13339468
this is a joke because realizing free will doesnt exist is the final realization

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 20:07:48 No.13339490 Report

Quoted By:

>>13338823
>If you are offered an apple or an orange, you still can freely chose.
yeah but there is still a reason why you make the choice you do. there are an infinite amount of biases that could influence you (though only a select amount do). for example, if you were raised in remote siberia without internet, you might not know what an orange or apple even are. Even then if you were to force a choice, the siberian man is still biased by things like shapes and colors. whichever one looks least familiar might be his choice.

how can any decision be described as free will when its a fact that we use prior knowledge and experience to define our cognitive biases?

a person who doesnt like coffee cant free will their tastebuds into liking it. maybe if you force yourself for weeks on end, but even then how free is your choice? your lack of choice would be why you chose to force yourself. it just never ends, free will does not exist

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 20:20:08 No.13339523 Report

Quoted By: >>13339940

>>13339480
who decides when the energy of the sun stops being sun energy and starts being flower energy? who decides when the salad's energy stops being salad energy and starts being Your energy?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 20:26:40 No.13339550 Report

Quoted By:

>>13335254
can abstract emergent properties exist? Why don’t you use your little faggot math to calculate my “will”? No statistics, just a deterministic outcome. I don’t give a shit, about your quantum theory which you can’t even measure without statistics and probability, you can’t even describe bread with that theory. The doctors don’t know how to solve shit in the human body, they just try random shit and hope it works Your theories are useless, and I have free will. I live in the human sphere and you live in the gay nerd quantum sphere

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 20:50:27 No.13339614 Report

Quoted By: >>13345654

>>13338738
you assume we follow the pages, when it makes more sense the other way around
think about something like this
>you have a computer that predict the states of all things at any point in time
>the future can now be perfectly predicted and written down. like the pages in a story book
>Do we follow the pages in the book, or was the book written in response to what happens meaning that free will does exist. There's something wrong if we think that predicting what will happens is the same as determining that it will.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 22:17:55 No.13339940 Report

Quoted By: >>13339946

>>13339523
the atoms in the sun that emitted the light that hit the atoms in the flower that turn the light into cellulose which eventually gets chewed by my teeth and absorbed by my body

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 22:19:14 No.13339946 Report

Quoted By:

>>13339940
That killed the rat,
That ate the malt
That lay in the house that Jack built.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 29 Jun 2021 22:25:35 No.13339970 Report

Quoted By: >>13340735 >>13344385

Anonymous

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Anonymous Wed 30 Jun 2021 00:52:00 No.13340341 Report

Quoted By:

I know this is the science board but I'll get a bit philosophical.

Free will VS determinism is a false dichotomy because each argues the other doesn't exist.
The simple truth is both exist, and are the same thing. If you truly have free will, you have the free will to determine outcomes, and if determinism is real, it is because it is followed by a will.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 30 Jun 2021 02:51:04 No.13340644 Report

Quoted By: >>13340717

>>13335254
No, just read about compatibilism.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 30 Jun 2021 03:15:44 No.13340717 Report

Quoted By: >>13340720 >>13340973

>>13340644
>cope-patibilism

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 30 Jun 2021 03:16:14 No.13340718 Report

Quoted By:

>>13335254
the universe doesn't exist

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 30 Jun 2021 03:17:17 No.13340720 Report

Quoted By: >>13340973

>>13340717
This. I don't feel very free if I was always going to make the choice and that was encoded since the dawn of time lmfao.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 30 Jun 2021 03:20:52 No.13340735 Report

Quoted By: >>13340939 >>13341606 >>13341654 >>13342546

>>13339970
That chart is bullshit. Free will is an emergant property from the combination of all the aspects listed there and more that aren't. It's a meta superposition that trancends physical reality, and is a consequence of consciousness.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 30 Jun 2021 03:46:44 No.13340816 Report

Quoted By:

>>13335254
>what mechanisms would allow it to operate?
Quantum superposition, since the only thing that can observe what goes on in your head is you.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 30 Jun 2021 03:54:37 No.13340842 Report

Quoted By: >>13349643

>>13338738
>From outside of space and time, every single moment in the book is already written.
That is physically impossible.
Thanks to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, every single particle in the universe exists, at its most fundamental level, in a state of quantum superposition. The movement of such particles cannot be predicted with perfect accuracy because they do not exist in a way that allows such a prediction to happen. Because of this, an interaction cannot be perfectly described until after it happens and the universe cannot be predetermined.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 30 Jun 2021 04:40:13 No.13340939 Report

Quoted By: >>13340965 >>13344765

>>13340735
You think a complicated enough computer could have free will?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 30 Jun 2021 04:48:00 No.13340965 Report

Quoted By:

>>13340939
Is that not the literal definition of a general artificial intelligence?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 30 Jun 2021 04:51:07 No.13340973 Report

Quoted By: >>13342765

>>13340717
>>13340720
It's okay to admit that you're not smart enough to get it, but it's more likely that you're just lazy, because it should only take about 30 seconds of not very intense thinking to understand

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 30 Jun 2021 10:32:44 No.13341606 Report

Quoted By:

>>13340735
>a bunch of things we have no control over results in something we have control over
???

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 30 Jun 2021 10:49:38 No.13341651 Report

Quoted By: >>13342539

>>13335797
>If free will doesn't exists, you're dead
I think it would be more accurate to say "there is no you" or no self.
>>13337137
No it's not lol. Determinism is the opposite of free will. If everything is predetermined, then you're not choosing anything, because you can't choose, because the future is fixed.
>>13337149
You sound like a brainlet anon. I'm sorry for your illness. Most profound concepts tend not to be amenable with simple noncircular definitions. This includes free will, probability, natural numbers, recursion etc.
>>13338351
How about the lightcone as a sphere of influence?
>>13338491
Why do you think so?
>>13338514
>which is scientifically proven to be false.
What's the proof? Let's see it then.
>>13338560
See my post above.
>>13338802
What's the difference?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 30 Jun 2021 10:50:10 No.13341654 Report

Quoted By:

>>13340735
>Free will is an emergant property from the combination of all the aspects listed there
This sounds like extreme cope to me.

Physics and chemistry aren't free will.
Genes acting in accordance with physics and chemistry aren't free will.
Genes acting in accordance with physics, chemistry, and their environment isn't free will.
Repeat ad nauseum

>and more that aren't.
such as?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 30 Jun 2021 10:51:08 No.13341656 Report

Quoted By:

>>13338857
>Free will is a philosophical problem, not a scientific one
Absolutely wrong. Free will is absolutely amenable to scientific inquiry.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Wed 30 Jun 2021 10:52:44 No.13341661 Report

Quoted By:

>>13338857
>Technically yes, everything is determined by all of the events preceding it,
Proof?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 30 Jun 2021 10:54:57 No.13341665 Report

Quoted By:

>>13335254
>muh random processes happening in brain determining my thoughts means that i dont determine my thoughts my brain does oh nooo
retard youre an atheist you think youre your brain

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 30 Jun 2021 15:12:03 No.13342364 Report

Quoted By:

>>13335254
>Free will doesn't exist
Okay smarty pants, explain why the color red exists. What determinstic conditions created red? What deterministic conditions created the determinstic conditions that created red? And so on.
>Free will doesn't make sense
You need to realize right now that this is out of your league. You need atleast 160 IQ to start thinking about this seriously.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Wed 30 Jun 2021 16:06:58 No.13342539 Report

Quoted By:

>>13341651
I actually like the lightcone suggestion as a model. It's a good way to crudely incorporate chaos (and the subsequent uncontrolled ripple effect of our actions) into the picture. The tip of the cone representing the "choice" we make in a given circumstance. So maybe an infinite amount of lightcones spreading in all directions? I suppose this would make my "sphere" suggestion a precursor to the generation of each cone, with each "arms-reach" decision factor a point of cone genesis, even the ones made unconsciously (most of them).

Once, when I was 12: my father and I were about to go to the movies, and as we walked to the car I told him to stop. "Why, son?", "Let's pause for 10 seconds and see what happens. We might avoid a car accident or something, who knows?"

So we paused for 10 seconds and went to the movies. In reality, who knows what we could have potentially avoided? We uneventfully made it there and back.

He passed away when I was 23.

I think of that 10 second window often. Not in sadness, but in some stupefied wonder of the universe at large. Another moment in my life that prevents me from diving too deep into defining our sense of control, although I don't think it's a futile thing to do? We have to wonder about these things. But, these days, I keep picking out my shirts in the morning, looking both ways at intersections, and am thankful for another day that I have the ability to wonder of such things. I think studying chemistry and pharmacology have helped me scratch that same itch though -- the predictability/observably deterministic action of our biological network is strangely comforting. Yet, even in these endeavors, we still find new and exciting things that have eluded us, right under our nose at times.

Maybe I have grown to prefer chasing infinity inwardly instead of outwardly.

Unironically, I use chaos theory to justify random acts of kindness too, to set a few initial conditions of my own.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 30 Jun 2021 16:09:28 No.13342546 Report

Quoted By:

>>13340735
you only exist because your parents fucked. Did you choose for that to happen?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 30 Jun 2021 16:29:32 No.13342607 Report

Quoted By:

>>13335254
>Is free will literally just magic
Pure absolute fw is like infinity, doesn't exist.
But with feedback and chaos , it's not infinity however the degree of freedom is like graham^graham, so big that in practice you can't tell the difference.
We're all robots, it just is usually way underestimated what robots can do.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 30 Jun 2021 17:19:07 No.13342765 Report

Quoted By: >>13343365 >>13343372

>>13340973
Say I'm destined to be a murderer some years from now. Well I was ALWAYS going to choose to murder, and there is absolutely nothing whatsoever that I could ever do to stop myself from carrying out these future murders. And then subsequently being jailed etc. and punished for the crime, though there was never a single thing that I could have done to prevent it.

This is a rigged game.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 30 Jun 2021 19:59:37 No.13343365 Report

Quoted By:

>>13342765
>Say I'm destined to be a murderer
What is this "destiny"? It can't be based on your knowledge since it's something you can't know. It can't be based on something physical, because the distant future isn't physically determined by the present (because of true randomness at small scales, chaotic systems

You could simply suppose that you were going to commit a specific murder at a specific time in the far future, but, again, that's not actually determined in the present, so destiny seems an inappropriate way to describe it.

Then let's consider a situation in which you might conceivably commit a specific murder in the immediate future, and restrict our attention to those cases in which the decision to commit the murder appears to be free in the everyday sense. (In the cases in which the decision doesn't appear to be free, we both can agree that it isn't.) Now, if the decision is free in the everyday sense, your choice is unrestrained in some sense (you are free of restrictions or coercion, for example being threatened or physically forced to move) and your decision is determined by your intentions, emotions or desires (you choose to commit the murder because, to some degree, you wanted to).

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 30 Jun 2021 20:01:15 No.13343372 Report

Quoted By: >>13344258

>>13342765
>Say I'm destined to be a murderer
What is this "destiny"? It can't be based on your knowledge since it's something you can't know. It can't be based on something physical, because the distant future isn't physically determined by the present (because of true randomness at small scales and chaotic systems at large scales, and possibly due to limitations on what can be known/measured)

You could simply suppose that you were going to commit a specific murder at a specific time in the far future, but, again, that's not actually determined in the present, so destiny seems an inappropriate way to describe it.

Then let's consider a situation in which you might conceivably commit a specific murder in the immediate future, and restrict our attention to those cases in which the decision to commit the murder appears to be free in the everyday sense. (In the cases in which the decision doesn't appear to be free, we both can agree that it isn't.) Now, if the decision is free in the everyday sense, your choice is unrestrained in some sense (you are free of restrictions or coercion, for example being threatened or physically forced to move) and your decision is determined by your intentions, emotions or desires (you choose to commit the murder because, to some degree, you wanted to).

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Jul 2021 00:18:37 No.13344258 Report

Quoted By: >>13344337

>>13343372
>t can't be based on something physical, because the distant future isn't physically determined by the present
It is
>true randomness
No such thing. There may be things that we are unable to predict (like unknown variables) or will never be able to predict (due to the time required for measurement being longer than it takes for the event to happen, the measurements themselves affecting the outcome, etc) but that doesn't mean they aren't predetermined.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Jul 2021 00:38:20 No.13344337 Report

Quoted By: >>13346022

>>13344258
At this point, you're disagreeing with the general consensus among physicists, so I suggest you take it up with them and not me.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Jul 2021 00:52:27 No.13344385 Report

Quoted By: >>13344599

>>13339970
>You don’t chose the result of random outcomes

Yes the fuck I do. This isn’t to say that I can choose results for anything that is random, but I do influence probabilities when I do things in the world. Everything that is called a choice has a degree of randomness due to the choices being made in a system who’s laws are innately probabilistic. Take a descriptivist functionalist approach to the idea of choice/ decision making and you’ll see what I mean.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Jul 2021 01:51:32 No.13344599 Report

Quoted By:

>>13344385
>Yes the fuck I do.
>This isn’t to say that I can choose results
So the answer is no, you don't.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Jul 2021 02:34:41 No.13344715 Report

Quoted By:

>>13335254
The ability to change the world around you limited only by your own abilities is what allows it.
You are asking "what is consciousness", and that is not so easy to define.

Do not pretend to know answers to things you are not capable of knowing. Others lime you who claim absolutes are changing the scientific method into a religious and political movement and a tool of totalitarian enslavement.

You should not push your "beliefs" on others like a zealot, and you should be more humble and realize there's much we do not yet know.

Amber-Whiskey anon

Amber-Whiskey anon Thu 01 Jul 2021 02:49:44 No.13344765 Report

Quoted By:

>>13340939
If it attained conciousness, yes.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Jul 2021 02:55:58 No.13344791 Report

Quoted By: >>13344833 >>13344884 >>13345496

Basically, free will has to exist for conscious beings. If it doesn't, then you aren't responsible for your own actions, and conscious beings are free to commit whatever atrocities they like free of responsibility. Look at the consiquences of Marxisim in the 20th century. Unimaginable death and suffering because of an ideology that argues that everything is rational and deterministic. Free will must exist for civilizations to last.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Jul 2021 03:11:13 No.13344833 Report

Quoted By:

>>13344791
>and conscious beings are free to commit whatever atrocities they like free of responsibility.

wut?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Jul 2021 03:29:58 No.13344884 Report

Quoted By:

>>13344791
>If it doesn't, then you aren't responsible for your own actions, and conscious beings are free to commit whatever atrocities they like free of responsibility.
If an asteroid hit the earth and killed 100 million people we wouldn't say "well the problem is that we didn't hold it responsible for its actions". That's ridiculous.

People (generally) don't commit atrocities because other humans will punish them for it. The same reason a lion doesn't blindly enter a circle of elephants, because it has evolved to know it will get killed if it does so.

There is no morality or moral responsibility in either case.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 01 Jul 2021 03:35:24 No.13344901 Report

Quoted By: >>13344903

>>13335254
>free will is observably real
>materialism is not
>can't explain free will within a materialist framework
>"free will must be an illusion"
You guys are funny

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Jul 2021 03:36:10 No.13344903 Report

Quoted By: >>13344916

>>13344901
the earth being flat is observably real. doesn't mean it's true

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Jul 2021 03:39:04 No.13344916 Report

Quoted By: >>13344928

>>13344903
>the earth being flat is observably real
except for how it is observably false, sure. Round Earth was observed by measuring shadows of sticks in the ground thousands of years ago.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Jul 2021 03:41:29 No.13344928 Report

Quoted By: >>13344948

>>13344916
and for thousands of years before that it was observably true that the earth was flat. we will look just as ignorant when our descendants consider our position on the free will myth

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Jul 2021 03:46:33 No.13344948 Report

Quoted By: >>13344950

>>13344928
>it was observably true that the earth was flat
do you not know what "true" or even "observable" means? It's not possible to observe something that doesn't exist. "Apparently" is the word you're looking for, the Earth was apparently a certain shape due to limited visual perspective and no one yet having the idea of the way to measure it.
Basically has nothing to do with the apparent reality of free will/consciousness anyway, not sure why you brought it up. Maybe to say "we used to think something wrong so we could be wrong on this unrelated thing" which is sophistry designed to persuade, not reason.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Jul 2021 03:47:42 No.13344950 Report

Quoted By: >>13345015

>>13344948
the earth being flat is just as observably real as free will. they are based solely on our perceptions, not truth

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Jul 2021 04:02:58 No.13345015 Report

Quoted By:

>>13344950
>they are based solely on our perceptions, not truth
just like materialism, which is the only grounds on which free will/consciousness is seriously challenged.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Jul 2021 04:17:52 No.13345079 Report

Quoted By:

it simply cant exist, every trick you can think of to let it exist can be overcome.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Jul 2021 04:22:20 No.13345091 Report

Quoted By:

The NPCs are acting up again...

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 01 Jul 2021 05:24:02 No.13345264 Report

Quoted By: >>13345496

>>13335254
The whole argument that "free will is an illusion" is a meaningless sophism. Humans obviously operate under the laws of nature, claiming that "free will means that humans do not obey the laws of nature" has to be the worst straw-man argument of all time.
Humans can be in similar situations and make very different decisions, this easily observable difference is what free will is. Any argument about the predictability of our decisions falls on the limit of computability, and thus transistions into mysticism.
The real argument goes something like this:
"Free will is an illusion because a magical god-computer could predict everything you will do" vs "Free will is easily observable and no perfect prediction is physically possible".

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Jul 2021 07:06:06 No.13345496 Report

Quoted By: >>13346045

>>13345264
It's irrelevant whether or not anyone/anything can in practice predict it. It's about having ultimate control over it.

Whatever you think of Sam Harris, he makes a pretty solid case for why libertarian free will isn't an actual thing that can ever exist for any entity in any universe or reality, even in theory, as do a lot of philosophers throughout the ages.

>>13344791
>If it doesn't, then you aren't responsible for your own actions, and conscious beings are free to commit whatever atrocities they like free of responsibility. Look at the consequences of Marxisim in the 20th century.
Okay

>Unimaginable death and suffering
Sure, reasonable analogy if one grants the premise

>because of an ideology that argues that everything is rational and deterministic.
???

>Free will must exist for civilizations to last.
Even if one assumes that's true, it's irrelevant to the process of trying to determine the correct answer to the question. The ostensible necessity or benefit of things that "must be" or "should be" is orthogonal to their reality

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 01 Jul 2021 08:04:36 No.13345654 Report

Quoted By:

>>13339614
The issue is thinking of it as a computer that simply observes and records (the idea of such a computer is also impossible as anything which could perfectly compute all attributes of every other particle would then also need to compute its own attributes if it was within reality). Anon is saying that whatever force causally precedes material reality set the states of every particle at the beginning of the universe, so it not only knows what will happen but determined the set up for what would happen.
This is consistent with more advanced Natural Theology. Created i.e contingent beings have quasi-free will within the context of reality because they have a "spirit" so are not purely material, yet even that is created so the Creator is ultimately in control. How exactly those two truths "meet in the middle" is I think beyond human comprehension.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Jul 2021 10:24:34 No.13346022 Report

Quoted By: >>13346730

>>13344337
>uh s-sorry maam I'll get the manager

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 01 Jul 2021 10:37:34 No.13346045 Report

Quoted By: >>13346815

>>13345496
You do have control over your actions, this is extremely basic, on the level of cogito ergo sum. This applies to everyone else as well (let's not get into the solipsism). Being that you can think and choose your actions, you are in control of yourself.
There is absolutely no reason at all for material dualism, "only God can provide free will" or any other similar arguments.
I do understand the counter-argument that your choices are "predetermined" in a sense, given your genes, environment etc. Yet this argument doesn't really remove free will, it just ignores it. People acting in according to their convictions and experiences is evidence of free will, not evidence against it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Jul 2021 14:21:14 No.13346681 Report

Quoted By:

Free will not existing is brain candy for impostor syndrome eejits not having the balls to do anything worthwhile of their lives

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Jul 2021 14:37:02 No.13346730 Report

Quoted By: >>13346762

>>13346022
>gravity doesn't exist, and therefore neither does free will
>uh s-sorry schizo, I'll get the psychiatrist

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Jul 2021 14:52:37 No.13346762 Report

Quoted By: >>13346838

>>13346730
there is evidence of gravity
we can test it
we can make predictions based off it

you can do no such thing with free will

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Jul 2021 15:20:27 No.13346815 Report

Quoted By:

>>13346045

All choices are fully predetermined, not just ''in a sense''. They just are. The fact that individual human though is so complex and unpredictable is both a necessary consequence of determinism and the reason why people falsely believe they have free will.

In essence, the free will argument is just an extension of the creationists argument for intelligent design. The fact that complex systems like animals exist at all is a logical consequence of the mechanism of evolution. In the same way, the fact that you are capable of making complex decisions is not evidence of a free will but a logical outcome of the evolutionary trajectory of humans. The fact that you are even capable of thinking about the concept of free will already requires you possess intellect. What if we extend this to other animals? Do worms have free will? Humans are only different insofar that we have some sort of meta-cognition, but this doesn't just grant you freedom from the laws of nature. No matter how complex a system is, the outcome is always determined by prior conditions and input, nothing more.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Jul 2021 15:31:23 No.13346838 Report

Quoted By: >>13348603

>>13346762
Yes, but in this case gravity is only an example. We were actually talking about true randomness. Here are your predictions and experiments:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_test

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Jul 2021 15:41:15 No.13346856 Report

Quoted By: >>13348895

>>13335254
"Man can do what he wills .. but he cannot will what he wills." - A. Schopenhauer

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Jul 2021 16:01:13 No.13346925 Report

Quoted By: >>13348899

>>13335254
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eELfSwqJNKU

you do what you do, because of the way you are. simple as.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Jul 2021 16:41:43 No.13347072 Report

Quoted By: >>13349098

When person goes from believing in free will to become a person who no longer believes in free will, how does he change behaviorally?
When society goes from believing in free will to become a society which no longer believes in free will, how does the society change?

I went from believing in free will to understanding I'm just observing and not guiding the actions. But I don't think anything changed.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 01 Jul 2021 17:28:02 No.13347230 Report

Quoted By:

>>13335254
Free will does exist, but not in the way commonly envisioned. Free will is an inherent property of reality. This is because unlike you and me, Reality is not externally constrained. Everything real is a part of reality. This means that there is nothing external to reality to define reality or limit its self-expression in any way. Thus Reality is free to do whatever it wants. And we are parts of reality. Which means that we are part of Reality's freedom. We inherit freedom in that way.

Yet, we do not have free will. Reality configures itself, so it must have internal constraints and rules. We follow those rules.

Yet, we have input into what those rules are. Very slight input.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Jul 2021 19:02:55 No.13347548 Report

Quoted By: >>13350383

>>13335334
Actually schizophrenics are commonly diagnosed over their belief that free will doesn't exist, at least for them. Funny huh?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Jul 2021 23:47:38 No.13348585 Report

Quoted By:

it's all a bunch of commie gobbledy gook

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Jul 2021 23:50:58 No.13348603 Report

Quoted By:

>>13346838
Bell's test is predicated on the assumption that no theory with hidden local variables can reproduce the predictions of quantum mechanics. But quantum mechanics itself is incomplete, so the argument is flawed at its foundation.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jul 2021 01:20:18 No.13348895 Report

Quoted By: >>13349324

>>13346856
>he cannot will what he wills
you absolutely can, just not retrocausally
suppose you wanted to like stamp collecting or an unfamiliar food
you might start by trying it
and you could end up liking it
this would result in you wanting to do or eat more
it's much clearer looking backward that your past decisions have had many effects on your present desires

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jul 2021 01:22:06 No.13348899 Report

Quoted By:

>>13346925
Yes, it's extremely simple, but some of the posters in this thread seem to think that determinism even disproves the existence of free groups.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jul 2021 01:29:32 No.13348912 Report

Quoted By:

itt: wild and unfounded assertions are made and presented as facts

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jul 2021 01:37:37 No.13348932 Report

Quoted By:

>>13335254
>free will doesn't exist
yeah, not my problem

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jul 2021 02:32:12 No.13349098 Report

Quoted By:

>>13347072
>When society goes from believing in free will to become a society which no longer believes in free will, how does the society change?
That was what ended the golden age of Islam a few centuries back, now that you mention it.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 02 Jul 2021 03:56:00 No.13349324 Report

Quoted By: >>13349396 >>13349934 >>13350261

>>13348895
all of that would require you to want to want to like stamp collecting.
you absolutely cannot get around it. you cannot choose what you ultimately want.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jul 2021 04:23:14 No.13349396 Report

Quoted By:

>>13349324
>all of that would require you to want to want to like stamp collecting.
Yes, that's exactly the point! There's a significant difference between a cause of your desires or a cause of a cause of your desires and some hypothetical ultimate cause. The whole confusion seems to be by people who think that intermediate causes are somehow unimportant and that only ultimate causes "count."

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jul 2021 06:02:49 No.13349627 Report

Quoted By:

>>13335254
>Even a soul, if such a thing existed, wouldn't allow free will because you didn't choose that either
these words don't make sense
why must one choose a soul to have free will?
That is an a priori asumption

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jul 2021 06:10:17 No.13349643 Report

Quoted By:

>>13340842
>Thanks to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle
A principle is not a law
This supposes naturalism is the only valid interpretation of reality as well.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 02 Jul 2021 08:42:55 No.13349934 Report

Quoted By:

>>13349324
You can choose to act in the pursuit of some end even if you don't want it in that moment. I'm a depressive retard, there are many days and longer periods when I don't want to do any or all of what I should be doing and wanted to do the day before. There was a time when I would just not do it because of that lack of contemporary want, but I can also make the choice to act on those wants while they're temporarily not there. I know that I will go back to thinking the things I'm doing are worthwhile, so I act on them despite not feeling them.
You can try to phrase that as "ah so you must have 'truly' wanted it even then!" but that's unfalsifiable nonsense. I'm quite aware of the mental experience of having a want/desire, I can also identify the lack of that desire. You will just end up playing a game of redefining anything I say as "actually" being a want when under normal meaning of the concepts you'd never call them the same as innate desires. Yes if you redefine everything as being a "desire" then you can't act without desire, I'm not sure what that is supposed to demonstrate other than you're good at playing word games which trip up sound reasoning.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jul 2021 11:22:49 No.13350261 Report

Quoted By:

>>13349324
listen, just because you think you didn't chose iteans youre less of a faggot, and i have decieded to not fuck youre mum again just to spite the universe

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jul 2021 11:25:43 No.13350269 Report

Quoted By:

>>13335254
free will does exist
but not for us

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Jul 2021 12:06:44 No.13350383 Report

Quoted By:

>>13347548
>Actually schizophrenics are commonly diagnosed over their belief that free will doesn't exist
not really. maybe believing that someone controls their brain or that they are an experiment rat and everyone else is on it but not freewill. thinking that you can control things like tv static, dice or any random event is common among schizophrenics. seeing patterns in noise is also common (see terry a davis)

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