/sci/ - Science & Math » Thread #13135695

676KiB, 1800x1200, 1800x1200_virus_3d_render_red_03_other[1].jpg

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO

Anonymous Sat 15 May 16:37:38 2021 No.13135695 View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>13135713 >>13135762 >>13135805 >>13135859 >>13136084 >>13136892

Why do the mRNA vaccines require a second dose and conventional vaccines dont? Why do some adenovirus vaccines also require a booster and others dont?
No handwaving please like "priming your immune system and then reinforcing blah blah". Use the proper scientific language. What happens at the cell level? I know that once the immune system is introduced to the antigen, the T-cells and B-cells proliferate and B-cells differentiate into plasma cells that will produce anti bodies. But why the second dose?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 15 May 2021 16:41:23 No.13135713 Report

Quoted By: >>13135720 >>13135724 >>13138328 >>13138511

>>13135695
Think of it like your body is a car and the vaccine is like going to the mechanic. For some fixes, the mechanic wants you to come back a few weeks later for a tune-up.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 15 May 2021 16:42:59 No.13135720 Report

Quoted By: >>13135728

>>13135713
This has reminded me of my undying hatred for both normies and media.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 15 May 2021 16:44:44 No.13135724 Report

Quoted By:

>>13135713
lol screw you

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 15 May 2021 16:45:13 No.13135728 Report

Quoted By:

>>13135720
Imagine twinkly ukulele music as you read it

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 15 May 2021 16:51:26 No.13135762 Report

Quoted By: >>13135795

>>13135695
retarded bait. sinopharm is conventional and needs two or three doses. johnsonx2 is the only one rewuiring one dose and it is a vectorvirus vaccine, not conventional. all others, both vectorvirus based (astra, sputnik) and mrna ones (pfizer, moderna) require two.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 15 May 2021 16:55:51 No.13135778 Report

Quoted By:

>virus: SARS-CoV2
>associated disease pattern: covid19

So the vaccine doesn't provide immunity to the virus, but it causes the body to fight the disease more effectively, reducing the symptoms?

Will the vaccine prevent long term body damage (organ tissue damage, neurological and psychological abnormalities, etc) from afflicting a person who gets infected?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 15 May 2021 16:58:05 No.13135789 Report

Quoted By: >>13136084

OP here. Here is my take. I read a lot of bullshit how the second dose somehow "activates long term memory" but I think it is bullshit. It is all about quantity not quality. I think the reason for that is the synthesized mRNA despite containing adjuvants still contains some contaminants even after purification. So it is somewhat antigenic and may cause inflammation. So the two doses do exact same thing just in limited amounts. And there is nothing more to it. None of that "priming" bullshit. There is no reason why the second dose should cause a more severe reaction unless it just contains more material.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 15 May 2021 16:59:50 No.13135795 Report

Quoted By:

>>13135762
You cant read apparently. Thats why I asked
>Why do some adenovirus vaccines also require a booster and others dont?
And you repeated the same thing without giving the reason why. What a dumb post.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 15 May 2021 17:03:38 No.13135805 Report

Quoted By: >>13135818 >>13135836

>>13135695

Wtf? Most vaccines require multiple doses

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 15 May 2021 17:05:39 No.13135818 Report

Quoted By:

>>13135805
Over decades maybe, not back-to-back

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 15 May 2021 17:10:03 No.13135836 Report

Quoted By: >>13135969 >>13136084

>>13135805
Yeah keep avoiding my question.
Flu is one dose. J&J is one dose. Sputnik is two doses. The only simple question I have is why have multiple doses in general. Is it simply to reduce toxicity and split the required dose into two or the second dose does something different or it depends on the vaccine. Thats all I am asking.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 15 May 2021 17:15:04 No.13135856 Report

Quoted By:

also turns out that sputnik uses two different vectors to reduce a chance of anit-vector immunity. well thats one reason.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 15 May 2021 17:16:20 No.13135859 Report

Quoted By: >>13135862 >>13135877

>>13135695
>conventional vaccines dont
The hep C vaccine requires 3 doses and the flu vaccines require yearly doses

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 15 May 2021 17:18:29 No.13135862 Report

Quoted By:

>>13135859
>The hep C vaccine requires 3 doses
Why?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 15 May 2021 17:21:49 No.13135877 Report

Quoted By:

>>13135859
one yearly dose yes. not two doses every year. so you don't know the answer. thats fine.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 15 May 2021 17:42:16 No.13135969 Report

Quoted By: >>13135992 >>13135994 >>13136882

>>13135836

Sure, I'll bite.
Nothing to do with toxicity.

You have millions of immunity cells. They undergo something called somatic hypermutation. This process results with each cell having a different antibody.

When you encounter an antigen for the first time, your body won't be able to mount a humoral response at first.
This antigen has to be captured with an antigen presenting cell, and taken to your lymph nodes where the B cells reside.

When an matching antigen/antibody combination occurs, the B cell will undergo a change. ?t will start multiplying, and producing antibodies to be released into the bloodstream.
This activation generally requires the antigen to be present, or it will fade.

This process, from start to finish, will take around 2 weeks or so at the very least.

Now, if this antigen is rare, your body will not keep high immunoglobulin (antibody) levels in your blood. And if this level is not high enough, you will still be susceptible to infection.

Booster doses and multiple doses remind the body of the antigen, which will in turn result in higher immunoglobulin levels in the blood.

Not every particle has the same antigenic potential either. Viral proteins score quite low in antigenicity, in this case. You will need either a higher number to provoke your immune cells, or a different method to increase antigenicity (like conjugated vaccines against pneumonia)

Most vaccines require multiple shots, like hep B/ polio etc. A vaccine requiring only a single dose is very rare , desu.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 15 May 2021 17:47:03 No.13135992 Report

Quoted By: >>13136027

>>13135969
>Most vaccines require multiple shots, like hep B/ polio etc
Over the span of years or weeks?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 15 May 2021 17:47:59 No.13135994 Report

Quoted By: >>13136027 >>13136182 >>13139780

>>13135969
So why not require two doses of the JnJ vaccine? Just one dose of Moderna/Pfizer is more effective is more effective than just one dose of JnJ. It makes 0 fucking sense.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 15 May 2021 17:58:54 No.13136027 Report

Quoted By:

>>13135992

Like 0, 1 month, 3 months, 6/12 months for hep b

>>13135994
Tbh they probably should, but w/e

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 15 May 2021 18:13:04 No.13136084 Report

Quoted By: >>13136901

>>13135695
>Why do the mRNA vaccines require a second dose and conventional vaccines dont?
China is the only country using conventional vaccines (Sinopharm and CoronaVac), and they're both two injections.

>Why do some adenovirus vaccines also require a booster and others dont?
The only vaccine I'm aware of not using a booster is J&J, and that may be at the expense of efficacy to increase convenience.

>>13135789
>OP here. Here is my take. I read a lot of bullshit how the second dose somehow "activates long term memory" but I think it is bullshit
We know for a fact that the booster raises antibodies about 10x higher than one injection alone. As for long term efficacy, we still have no idea. Moderna and Pfizer have both said they think yearly boosters are required, but some researchers are pushing back, saying that we'll only know with more time and it's too soon to start forming conclusions.

>>13135836
>Flu is one dose. J&J is one dose.
The flu vaccine tends to perform terribly (for reasons beyond just the one dose, of course), as does J&J. There's also the issue that body can become resistant to the adenovirus used, which is why Sputnik V uses a different one for the second injection.

>The only simple question I have is why have multiple doses in general. Is it simply to reduce toxicity and split the required dose into two or the second dose does something different or it depends on the vaccine.
No, it's not just a matter of splitting the dose. Giving the immune system time after the first dose matters. The UK waited three months rather than three weeks to give the booster for the mRNA vaccines. They found it increased antibodies 3.5x higher than the three-week regimen, though T-Cell response was lower.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 15 May 2021 18:32:09 No.13136182 Report

Quoted By: >>13139780

>>13135994
good question desu.

also worth noting that the JnJ vax gives you like 75% immunity or something. not as good as the other two dose vaccines. i remember reading some that one shot of the mRNA is estimated to be like 80% effective. not sure why they only do one JnJ shot though. maybe that's just how they decided to do their trial.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 15 May 2021 21:16:14 No.13136882 Report

Quoted By: >>13140004

>>13135969
>the process
I understand all that. except
>if this antigen is rare
what do you mean rare? all antigens are "rare" when our immune system encounters them for the first time. or do you mean there is not enough antigen produced in a single dose?

> remind the body of the antigen
what is the point of a reminder 3 weeks later? why 3 weeks not 3 months not 1 year?
After the first shot it will take our immune system about 2 weeks to produce a certain amount antibodies and then it will stop producing them.
So certainly it will still have those anti bodies a week later.

It sounds like the first dose was just not enough proteins to produce enough antibodies. But why not give the double dose then?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 15 May 2021 21:18:07 No.13136892 Report

Quoted By:

>>13135695
>conventional vaccines dont require multiple doses
The absolute state of 4chan intellectuals

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 15 May 2021 21:19:36 No.13136901 Report

Quoted By: >>13137584

>>13136084
>We know for a fact that the booster raises antibodies about 10x higher than one injection alone.
Why is that?

>Giving the immune system time after the first dose matters.
Why?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 15 May 2021 23:42:41 No.13137584 Report

Quoted By:

>>13136901
Answering my own question: memory cells. The first dose activates naive B cells and they differentiate into plasma cells that produce antibodies, and memory cells. The second dose does the same thing PLUS it also activates the memory cells that have been generated over the last three weeks since the first dose. And those memory cells mount a quicker response and start producing antibodies immediately.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 15 May 2021 23:47:30 No.13137606 Report

Quoted By: >>13137870 >>13138310

the longer you wait between the two doses the more effective the second dose becomes
they are trying to cram them as close as possible together so they can open everything back up for profits

a single shot does 'work' in that it imparts 50-60% effectiveness

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 16 May 2021 00:43:36 No.13137870 Report

Quoted By:

>>13137606
>the longer you wait between the two doses the more effective the second dose becomes
Well, there's presumably a point where immunity from the first shot will fall significantly. You don't want to wait until that point for the booster. With that said, it seems from the UK trials that 3-months for the first booster rather than 3-weeks is not only not detrimental, but possibly more effective. For the third dose (or rather the second booster), we still don't know. It seems things are still holding pretty steady at six months.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 16 May 2021 02:06:48 No.13138310 Report

Quoted By: >>13138481

>>13137606
Well two shots 3 weeks apart are rated at 95% efficiency. Can't get any better than that.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 16 May 2021 02:11:20 No.13138328 Report

Quoted By: >>13138511

>>13135713
Thank you for the giggle.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 16 May 2021 02:56:46 No.13138481 Report

Quoted By:

>>13138310
96~100% is better than 95%

Anonymous

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO Screenshot_14.png, 15KiB, 808x194

Anonymous Sun 16 May 2021 03:04:13 No.13138511 Report

Quoted By:

>>13135713
>>13138328
the reality is even worse

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 16 May 2021 10:55:55 No.13139780 Report

Quoted By:

>>13135994
>>13136182
>maybe that's just how they decided to do their trial
Probably this.
Vektor and mRNA vaccines have a different (slower?) antigen output than the oldschool ones so the innitial effect should be stronger. If strong enough is up for discussion though.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 16 May 2021 11:08:27 No.13139822 Report

Quoted By: >>13139977 >>13143457

The true answer is profit. Two shots means twice profit for Pfizer. That's why they're already pushing for a third shot. We know it isn't necessary. Natural immunity after surviving the real Covid most likely lasts a lifetime (unless a mutated virus fucks you up, but that problem applies to vaccines as well). Yet the media keep telling you that natural immunity would be inferior to vaccine immunity. It's just marketing.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 16 May 2021 12:07:01 No.13139977 Report

Quoted By: >>13140038

>>13139822
Please go find the nearest rabid animal and get a toothy blowjob from it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 16 May 2021 12:15:08 No.13140004 Report

Quoted By: >>13140996

>>13136882

what do you mean rare? all antigens are "rare" when our immune system encounters them for the first time. or do you mean there is not enough antigen produced in a single dose?

Something that is not commonly found in viruses/bacteria.
For instance, literally everyone will have blood type antigens. This is due to them also being present on bacteria in our digestive tract, thus us encountering it very often.

Coronaviridae express some relatively rare proteins, to which we are likely not accustomed to.

>It sounds like the first dose was just not enough proteins to produce enough antibodies. But why not give the double dose then?

You could achieve a higher immune response with a higher dose, but it is not as efficient nor effective as multiple shots.

>what is the point of a reminder 3 weeks later? why 3 weeks not 3 months not 1 year?

Depends on how fast the immunity response tapers off. You could probably change is around a bit, like how vaccination schedules differ among countries.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 16 May 2021 12:26:41 No.13140038 Report

Quoted By:

>>13139977
>t. Pzifer employee

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 16 May 2021 17:06:59 No.13140996 Report

Quoted By:

>>13140004
>Coronaviridae express some relatively rare proteins, to which we are likely not accustomed to.
Of course we are not accustomed to many microbes. Why does it matter? Thats the whole point. We have a huge repertoire of naive T and B cells each specific to one of the billions of antigen patterns. Once our body is exposed to that antigen for the first time, the T and B cells specific to it will get activated and cloned and will start producing antibodies for that specific antigen. You could be exposed to millions of various pathogens, and they will all be recognized and your immune system will make antibodies for all of them.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 16 May 2021 21:44:26 No.13142352 Report

Quoted By: >>13143105

>and conventional vaccines dont?
they do

Anonymous

View Same Google iqdb SauceNAO file.png, 130KiB, 1135x119

Anonymous Sun 16 May 2021 22:04:41 No.13142430 Report

Quoted By: >>13143067

Why are experts now saying we will need a 3rd booster shot? I thought immunity lasted for decades. Are they admitting they didn't run the vaccine trials long enough to properly test the vaccines? Are they just retarded? It's not like this virus mutates super fast like the flu virus. What's the logic behind this?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 17 May 2021 00:51:34 No.13143067 Report

Quoted By:

>>13142430
its because vaccines have never given immunity

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 17 May 2021 01:02:45 No.13143105 Report

Quoted By: >>13143131

>>13142352
Name one besides hepatitis

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 17 May 2021 01:11:06 No.13143131 Report

Quoted By: >>13143175

>>13143105
Rota
Polio
Diphteria, tetanus and pertussis
Pneumococcus
Hemophilus inlfuenzae

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 17 May 2021 01:23:46 No.13143175 Report

Quoted By: >>13143251

>>13143131
is it a coincidence that all of them are given to infants, typically two months apart or longer, (the last one that can be taken a year later)? not really what we are talking about itt. but if it is a way to prove your point then yes, they are multi dose vaccines alright.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 17 May 2021 01:38:30 No.13143251 Report

Quoted By: >>13143295

>>13143175
Cholera
HPV
Tick
Rabies

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 17 May 2021 01:50:19 No.13143295 Report

Quoted By: >>13143314 >>13143464

>>13143251
>HPV
6-12 months apart
>Tick
1-3 months, and 5-12 months apart

>Rabies
4(!) doses, thats insane

>Cholera
>Booster doses are recommended after 2 years
So this is the second dose? I couldn't find the schedule. Some sources say a single dose can be administered.

So most multi dose vaccines are all have their own unique weird schedules, typically months apart.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 17 May 2021 01:53:44 No.13143314 Report

Quoted By:

>>13143295
>So most multi dose vaccines are all have their own unique weird schedules, typically months apart.
Yeah, what's the problem?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 17 May 2021 02:36:27 No.13143457 Report

Quoted By:

>>13139822
>Natural immunity after surviving the real Covid most likely lasts a lifetime
I'm not aware of this being the case with any existing coronavirus. You may still have some memory B cells, but they likely won't prevent infection entirely. It's not like with measles where antibodies may circulate for the rest of your life.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 17 May 2021 02:40:23 No.13143464 Report

Quoted By:

>>13143295
>So most multi dose vaccines are all have their own unique weird schedules, typically months apart.
I'm going to make a wild guess that it's simply done that way because they were trialed that way and worked. The mRNA vaccines were given 3 or 4 weeks apart in the USA, and three months apart in the UK, and both were effective at boosting the antibody response.

Capcode	All Only User Posts Only Moderator Posts Only Admin Posts Only Developer Posts
Show Posts	All Only With Images Only Without Images
Deleted Posts	All Only Deleted Posts Only Non-Deleted Posts
Ghost Posts	All Only Ghost Posts Only Non-Ghost Posts
Post Type	All Only Sticky Threads Only Opening Posts Only Reply Posts
Results	All Grouped By Threads
Order	Latest Posts First Oldest Posts First

Your latest searches