/sci/ - Science & Math » Thread #13089483

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Is there any point in getting a phd if you arent planning on going into research?

Anonymous Thu 06 May 19:37:40 2021 No.13089483 View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>13089508 >>13089754 >>13090260

Seems like all you felt like doing was research for the sake of learning or whatever, you could just do it on your own.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 06 May 2021 19:41:31 No.13089508 Report

Quoted By: >>13089513

>>13089483
>Ph.D in mathematics
>any job I want
>300k starting

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 May 2021 19:43:28 No.13089513 Report

Quoted By: >>13089524

>>13089508
Except the 300k starting, this unironically.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 May 2021 19:46:39 No.13089524 Report

Quoted By: >>13089675 >>13089714

>>13089513
Ignoring that its just a meme, no. A degree in math will leave you underemployed easily. You wont get an engineering job, you will have to compete with comp sci majors for software engineering jobs, and you have to compete against finance and accounting majors for finance related jobs. The odds are stacked against math majors in the job market. They have to compete against people who got specific degrees for specific jobs.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 May 2021 20:16:48 No.13089675 Report

Quoted By: >>13089701 >>13089709

>>13089524
Except for one extremely autistic dude (who also wasn't really good at math but managed to complete his phd, also no social skills and basically a walking asshole) this is not true in my experience. Even though you have to compete against, say, mbas, the hiring department is usually well aware that you will be far more capable after a short training if you got a math master or phd. And I know a lot of people who got really nice jobs, e.g. in engine r&d, or simply founded their own business with success.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 May 2021 20:22:15 No.13089701 Report

Quoted By: >>13089711

>>13089675
So are you saying it only works if you have a graduate degree in math and are competing against people with undergrads?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 May 2021 20:23:17 No.13089709 Report

Quoted By: >>13089721

>>13089675
>or simply founded their own business with success.
Well you dont need a phd to start your own business. They could have started that instead of going to grad school and saved a bunch of time.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 May 2021 20:23:25 No.13089711 Report

Quoted By: >>13089756

>>13089701
What? I didn't say that at all. tl;dr: math degree > other degree

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 May 2021 20:23:59 No.13089714 Report

Quoted By: >>13089766

>>13089524
If I ever became wealthy and powerful I swear to god Id populate my entire company with math phds just to btfo other majors. Im not even a math or statistics student btw.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 May 2021 20:25:32 No.13089721 Report

Quoted By: >>13089760

>>13089709
In my country you're paid for going to grad school and if you got no cash to begin with you need to convince the banks that you need startup shekels. A PhD in math is a good argument.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 06 May 2021 20:34:36 No.13089754 Report

Quoted By:

>>13089483
Are you of the phenotype?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 May 2021 20:35:05 No.13089756 Report

Quoted By: >>13089783

>>13089711
Oh, that seems to contrary to what Ive heard about. For example, if you have two people, one math degree, one comp sci, and they both apply for a software engineering position, who will likely get it if both only have their degrees and no internship experience. Also, the math major only took math classes, and he did not learn to code in his free time. Comp sci major as well only took comp sci classes and the only coding he learned was through school.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 May 2021 20:36:07 No.13089760 Report

Quoted By:

>>13089721
you get paid here too, but its not very much. Youd make way more money with any normal job.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 May 2021 20:37:22 No.13089766 Report

Quoted By: >>13089816

>>13089714
What would the company be? Like a tech company? Who would train the employees in whatever it is you do? Like engineering or programming? Seems like youd spend a lot of money on in house training

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 May 2021 20:40:17 No.13089783 Report

Quoted By: >>13089818

>>13089756
>who will likely get it if both only have their degrees and no internship experience
If the math major can prove ANY kind of reasonable programming ability he will get it. If you study compsci you have to do kiddy math (at least in comparison with a math major) and don't really learn to program. If both got PhDs it's another story.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 May 2021 20:47:22 No.13089816 Report

Quoted By: >>13089824 >>13089841

>>13089766
Nobody actually uses their degrees for the actual job anyway. Companies just train in-house 99% of the time. Most degrees are just fraudulent certifications which say you've passed some vague standard of achievement. A math p.h.d. is probably the most g loaded degree you can possibly get, just populate management and all the high level positions with them and you're golden, thats what Jim simons did.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 May 2021 20:47:33 No.13089818 Report

Quoted By: >>13089909

>>13089783
But the question I posed was one where the math major has zero knowledge of programming. Could he still get the job? Could he get any software engineering job if he had zero programming knowledge but had stellar grades from his math degree?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 May 2021 20:48:45 No.13089824 Report

Quoted By: >>13089909 >>13089938

>>13089816
If thats such a clear way to success, why isnt everyone doing that and most companies requiring specific degrees that show you understand the specific trade they want you to do like comp sci or engineering?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 May 2021 20:51:52 No.13089841 Report

Quoted By:

>>13089816
>A math p.h.d. is probably the most g loaded degree you can possibly get,
Itd be excessive. A phd doesnt show you that you are any smarter than someone with a masters. If you can get a masters, you can get a phd since you were able to understand the courses. phds are just a formality that you have to do to show you can do research, but research is done even in the undergraduate level. phds are really only useful in academia because they are cheap labor for the tenured professors.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 May 2021 21:06:30 No.13089909 Report

Quoted By: >>13089955 >>13089961

>>13089824
>why isnt everyone doing that
successfully completing a math PhD is a LOT harder than any other PhD
>>13089818
Well in that case is unlikely that he gets the job.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 May 2021 21:11:43 No.13089938 Report

Quoted By:

>>13089824
A good example is Jim Simons company. Everybody discounted its success for years saying "its just a fluke bro", then when they had a bad year from the pandemic they all go "SEE, I TOLD YOU IT WAS A FLUKE". People are really stupid in reality, they overvalue their own perceptions and bias. Its like how the decisions of hedge fund managers were foind to be no better than random chance. If you're inexplicably winning then its always due to ability and not a fluke. Jim Simons could actually point to why he was winning.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 May 2021 21:14:22 No.13089955 Report

Quoted By: >>13089975 >>13090076

>>13089909
No, I mean why dont companies prefer to hire math phds rather than hire people with degrees that are more trade specific

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 May 2021 21:15:24 No.13089961 Report

Quoted By: >>13090052

>>13089909
>Well in that case is unlikely that he gets the job.
So then it would seem like the math grad needs more than the deree. He needs to basically become a good programmer too, which sort of makes his math degree being the key to getting hired seem not true.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 May 2021 21:19:04 No.13089975 Report

Quoted By: >>13089989

>>13089955
People overvalue the experience of a degree, like by a lot. When for most degrees 99% of what you need to know can be googled, high level math degrees with a good gpa, no. They commit a fallacy and believe that if you were good at doing marketing, finance or some other shit in college you're gonna be good at the job, when in all likelihood a math phd with training could do it 10x better.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 May 2021 21:21:40 No.13089989 Report

Quoted By: >>13090025

>>13089975
I just have some doubts that it would work out so well since these companies do whatever it takes to make money and this seems like such a simple way to increase productivity

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 May 2021 21:28:26 No.13090025 Report

Quoted By:

>>13089989
Yeah well all it takes in a single breakout like moneyball or Jim simons.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 May 2021 21:33:48 No.13090052 Report

Quoted By: >>13090544

>>13089961
Define good programmer. Math degree + some programming experience like a (meaningful) hobby project or two will be higher valued than compsi degree.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 May 2021 21:38:55 No.13090076 Report

Quoted By: >>13090554

>>13089955
Intuitively we want to believe if X low iq guy does Y job for Z years, then he'll be better at it than someone who's high IQ who just learned it a couple months ago, when in reality that's not true whatsoever. In fact, the entire existence of IQ is to debunk this, thats literally what IQ is saying (or the g factor really), yet we delude ourselves otherwise.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 May 2021 22:17:56 No.13090208 Report

Quoted By:

Why to get a Ph.D.
>Love of the subject
>Want to work in academia
Math is too broad a subject area to speak about a math doctorate in general terms. A pure math advanced degree is likely to have less utility than someone who specialized in a more applied field. Even James Simmons says that his area of expertise is not used at his hedge fund but statistics is.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 May 2021 22:29:46 No.13090260 Report

Quoted By: >>13090562

>>13089483
the point of getting a phd is to avoid getting a real job

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 May 2021 23:31:31 No.13090544 Report

Quoted By: >>13090565

>>13090052
This is just me, but I dont find it convincing that the argument that math majors are marketable because they can get good jobs if they know how to program. To me if you said, a math major and the guy went through code academys pythons basic course, that would be different. But it seems like it needs to be something to where you are just as capable as someone who majored in comp sci.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 May 2021 23:33:34 No.13090554 Report

Quoted By: >>13090565

>>13090076
But what you said is wrong. A 115 IQ mechanical engineer with 10 years of experience would be a way better employee than a 140 IQ math major with 2 months of training in engineering, if the job is to be a mechanical engineer.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 May 2021 23:34:35 No.13090562 Report

Quoted By:

>>13090260
Most people who get phds do get normal jobs though

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 May 2021 23:35:21 No.13090565 Report

Quoted By: >>13090601 >>13090611

>>13090544
I'm a bit confused about what exactly you want to tell me here ESL-kun, sorry...
t. also ESL
>>13090554
Nope, don't think so.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 May 2021 23:41:48 No.13090601 Report

Quoted By: >>13090714

>>13090565
>Nope, don't think so.
So lets say there was a job that has to get immediately done at a mechanical engineering company. You have one man with a 110 IQ and with a bachelors in ME and 10 years of experience in the industry, and another man with a math major and a 140 IQ and 2 months of experience in the industry. Its your opinion that it would be best to assign the math major to the job?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 May 2021 23:44:40 No.13090611 Report

Quoted By: >>13090751

>>13090565
>I'm a bit confused about what exactly you want to tell me here
The argument is not convincing because it essentially doesnt mean that math degrees make you marketable. The argument implies that a math degree is marketable if you also know how to program well. Its not the degree but the programming experience that is what matters.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 07 May 2021 00:09:00 No.13090714 Report

Quoted By:

>>13090601
Maybe not 2 months of training, but 1 year of training the math major definitely would putperfoem the other guy.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 07 May 2021 00:17:26 No.13090751 Report

Quoted By: >>13090788

>>13090611
No anon, it's the programming experience that opens the possibility to apply for a job that involves programming, and the math degree that is the convincing argument why you should get it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 07 May 2021 00:27:48 No.13090788 Report

Quoted By: >>13090833

>>13090751
You are basically expressing what I already said. But for the programming experience, you wont get the job. The math degree can help convince them, but so could almost any degree. That to me says that the math degree is not unique or has any unique value for marketability. A physics, stats, or engineering degree would be nearly just as convincing if not more so since employers like applied science majors. And the comp sci degree is almost always preferred above all others for software openings, according to job listings.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 07 May 2021 00:43:18 No.13090833 Report

Quoted By:

>>13090788
Hm. Maybe you're right, maybe not... I will talk to some of my former colleagues who went this route. If I'm quick enough and this thread is still up I'll report back.

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