/sci/ - Science & Math » Thread #13021994

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Neuralink / BCI

Anonymous Fri 23 Apr 23:03:24 2021 No.13021994 View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>13022053 >>13022201 >>13022260 >>13028582

Are BCIs the future of technology or are they a dead-end?
Will there ever be a commercial application or will they forever be restricted only to medical use?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 23 Apr 2021 23:32:33 No.13022053 Report

Quoted By: >>13022111 >>13022201 >>13022781

>>13021994
Gabe Newell, the owner of Valve talked about how there will be non-invasive versions of neuralink in the future.

I don't know how far off that technology is, but he seemed pretty confident in the interview.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 23 Apr 2021 23:53:11 No.13022111 Report

Quoted By: >>13022201 >>13023428

>>13022053
Gaben is heavily funding his own BCI company, which is focusing on extracranial as of right now.
He seems to be confident that it's entirely possible to productize invasive BCIs in the near future, though.
I think he's probably right.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 23 Apr 2021 23:55:27 No.13022116 Report

Quoted By: >>13022180

They're literally the endgame of humanity.
Once we're able to connect multiple persons together, a literal hivemind will have been born.
This'll take a few decades though, so no need to be worried. Yet.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 24 Apr 2021 00:17:09 No.13022180 Report

Quoted By: >>13023449

>>13022116
>Once we're able to connect multiple persons together
That'll happen once we merge with AI, it'll be a natural byproduct.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 24 Apr 2021 00:23:19 No.13022201 Report

Quoted By: >>13022230 >>13022249

>>13021994
>>13022053
>>13022111
Gabens son slipped in an interview a few years back that Valve had at that time been experimenting with wireless image and sound induction based on medical TMS equipment. Gaben has been talking about long-term 'full dive VR' BCI research bypassing actual sensation entirely, for I believe over a decade now.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 24 Apr 2021 00:34:33 No.13022230 Report

Quoted By: >>13022812

>>13022201
As much as that sounds like an interesting experience, I can see something like this being weaponized like that black mirror episode where humans appeared as ghouls so soldiers were less empathetic towards their victims.

Similarly, the real-world censorship episodes. I only mention that episode, because it would be easier to augment a helmet with that tech first.

Regardless of these grim foresights, I think it'll be breathtaking to try out.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 24 Apr 2021 00:37:44 No.13022240 Report

Quoted By:

As long as I can be a yiffy fox in the AI, all means go ahead.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 24 Apr 2021 00:38:48 No.13022249 Report

Quoted By: >>13023435

>>13022201
You're talking about the VNN interview
He's unlisted it but here's the link https://youtu.be/35QvyaRn6OY
So far, in terms of what he predicted, Gray seems to have been pretty on the money, for whatever that's worth.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 24 Apr 2021 00:43:27 No.13022260 Report

Quoted By: >>13022277 >>13022308

>>13021994
Having a direct brain to brain interface will kill consciousness without a language to mediate communication. Brain to computer is trivial. Computer to brain is impossible.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 24 Apr 2021 00:50:32 No.13022277 Report

Quoted By: >>13022297 >>13022911

>>13022260
>Computer to brain is impossible.
Elaborate

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 24 Apr 2021 00:57:16 No.13022297 Report

Quoted By:

>>13022277
Ignore the fool.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 24 Apr 2021 01:01:09 No.13022308 Report

Quoted By: >>13022987

>>13022260
>direct brain to brain interface
it doesn't work like that. if you can access the internet with your brain you have infinite possibilities.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 24 Apr 2021 01:25:13 No.13022378 Report

Quoted By:

https://youtu.be/LHCZtkgwl2E
New neurapod interview

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 24 Apr 2021 03:25:52 No.13022781 Report

Quoted By: >>13022804 >>13022809 >>13023418

>>13022053
>>noninvasive
hahaha, fuck no. Noninvasive is and will always be shit. Ain't no way you can read and write to individual neurons noninvasively

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 24 Apr 2021 03:37:22 No.13022804 Report

Quoted By:

>>13022781
Non invasive stuff will be all the rage with luddites who are scared of becoming a zombie or something retarded.
Eventually those people will be filtered out.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 24 Apr 2021 03:38:49 No.13022809 Report

Quoted By: >>13023347

>>13022781
You would be surprised. I worked in HIFU, where we would MRI scan someone, and non-invasively sonicate brain tumors to death using accurately phased-shifted transducer arrays. Something similar could be done to develop custom headwear that is calibrated to transceive key areas of the brain.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 24 Apr 2021 03:40:08 No.13022812 Report

Quoted By: >>13022815 >>13022880

>>13022230
I tend not to give much of a shit about fear of BCI mind control, because of how near-totally effective the mind control already is. Like "yeah imagine if technology turned humans into insane monsters!".

The idea of it being newly truly irresistible (direct and instant) and thereby enabling the reach to the effectively-MK-resistant super-minority is frightening but if it ever is at that level (eg. imperceptible changeover to filtered perception, or arbitrary memory manipulation, ie. GITS 'ghost hacking') it just becomes another not-worth-unduly-worrying-about slow-stress-killer horror like all the others we already live with (all sorts of WMDs, the panopticon surveillance society, the potential reality of 'God' and/or the ultimate inevitability of death, etc.).

I'm a fuckload more scared of where social media has already taken us, and where it may yet be going, than I am specifically personally afraid of being 'hacked' via BCI. maybe that's naive, who can say yet?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 24 Apr 2021 03:41:42 No.13022815 Report

Quoted By:

>>13022812
Amen. The world as we know it is already a playground for the elite. They probably fancy the occasional radical organization, so they can ritualize their defeat.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 24 Apr 2021 04:00:06 No.13022880 Report

Quoted By:

>>13022812
You forgot about prion diseases, which we have no sanitary methods for. Imagine your brain slowly being whittled away into a sponge. You'd probably forget you imagined it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 24 Apr 2021 04:08:44 No.13022911 Report

Quoted By: >>13022984 >>13023449 >>13026826

>>13022277
You would need a complete understanding and model of the brain and its environment in order to write information directly to the brain. The idea that it’ll be like the Matrix and that people with Neuralinks will be able to just download whatever information or skill they want is retarded. At best, it could stimulate neuroplasticity with electrodes and maybe increase your rate of learning that way. But for the most part what it’ll do is massively increase the bandwidth in one direction i.e. your output will be much faster but your input will remain the same. The monke still had to use his eyes to play pong for example. By the way, the same reason that a computer to brain interface is basically impossible is why the reverse is trivial. The same process your brain uses to learn how to use a limb is the same process it uses to learn how to use a Neuralink, provided the device produces a reliable output.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 24 Apr 2021 04:36:16 No.13022984 Report

Quoted By:

>>13022911
>The idea that it’ll be like the Matrix and that people with Neuralinks will be able to just download whatever information or skill they want is retarded.
Yeah that will totally be impossible in 100 years.
Definitely won't have happened in 200 years, let alone 300!

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 24 Apr 2021 04:36:40 No.13022987 Report

Quoted By: >>13031367 >>13031599

>>13022308
Are you stupid? At best, instead of having to type to search something on Google, thinking it will be enough to get it to come up on your computer. But you’ll still have to look at a screen with your eyes to see it and get the information into your brain. It’s still an amazing development and would increase productivity exponentially, but it won’t change you in the way you think it will.

Now what I meant by ‘brain to brain directly’ is when Elon said we will be able to communicate directly to each other without talking or language. No. Not unless you’re willing to merge with whoever it is you’re doing this with and lose your selfhood in order to achieve a 1:1 conceptual mapping of thoughts. The brain is not like other organs. The part of my brain where the concept of a car is stored is different to where the concept of a car is stored in yours and is mediated by our subjective experiences and the data we’ve sampled independently. You can’t have an AI model act as an interpreter and figure out where the concept of a car is stored in your brain and my brain respectively because you can’t collect data on our subjective experience. That leaves two options. Either the two brains communicate via a common language or they effectively (not physically) merge and become one conscious entity by agreeing on the same internal representation.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 24 Apr 2021 04:37:45 No.13022988 Report

Quoted By: >>13023014

Oh fuck he's here.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 24 Apr 2021 04:46:47 No.13023014 Report

Quoted By:

>>13022988
Who? Musk?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 24 Apr 2021 06:33:45 No.13023347 Report

Quoted By: >>13025077 >>13026174

>>13022809
Yeah that's cool and all, but how are you going to stimulate or read individual neurons? Tumors are probably bigger than neurons aren't they? How do you compensate for the brain deforming due to blood flow btw?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 24 Apr 2021 06:57:59 No.13023418 Report

Quoted By:

>>13022781
Openwater said they're doing it with infrared light. Had a TED talk and everything. They were very specific about single neuron resolution, read and write.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 24 Apr 2021 07:02:38 No.13023428 Report

Quoted By: >>13023435

>>13022111
Hope he is right. Could use this kind of thing for people crippled by traumatic brain injury-causing paralysis. Couple a BCI with a sleeved prosthetic and people with paralyzed limbs could walk again with nothing but their own thoughts controlling themeselves.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 24 Apr 2021 07:04:32 No.13023435 Report

Quoted By:

>>13022249
>>13023428

Thank you anon.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 24 Apr 2021 07:11:09 No.13023449 Report

Quoted By: >>13026004

>>13022180
>AI
>>13022911
This, it’s a one way street

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 24 Apr 2021 15:42:03 No.13025077 Report

Quoted By:

>>13023347
The normative person's brain isn't riddled with huge tumors.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 24 Apr 2021 19:50:02 No.13026004 Report

Quoted By: >>13029673

>>13023449
>AI
What?
Are you under the impression that merging with AI isn't the end goal?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 24 Apr 2021 20:42:07 No.13026174 Report

Quoted By:

>>13023347
Each individual transducer was capable of sonicating very precise areas. The reason we needed an array was to be able to sonicate bigger areas.

The transducers could be scaled down easily, or in this case, the electromagnetic transceiver. I think it's entirely plausible.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 24 Apr 2021 23:01:54 No.13026826 Report

Quoted By: >>13028144 >>13031346

>>13022911
>You would need a complete understanding and model of the brain and its environment in order to write information directly to the brain.
This is retarded, you would only need to understand specific regions to a certain degree.
We've already managed to cause people to see flashes of checkerboard patterns, which is achieved via writing to the visual cortex.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 25 Apr 2021 05:43:48 No.13028144 Report

Quoted By: >>13028454

>>13026826
>We've already managed to cause people to see flashes of checkerboard patterns, which is achieved via writing to the visual cortex.
sauce?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 25 Apr 2021 07:41:11 No.13028454 Report

Quoted By:

>>13028144
https://youtube.com/watch?v=1Ust3fIgnno

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortical_implant#Visual_implants

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 25 Apr 2021 08:42:27 No.13028582 Report

Quoted By: >>13028584

>>13021994
They are the future but not the way they are depicted in fiction. We won't have VR MMOs and gay shit like that for a very long time, but you will get a button to press that says "Be creative for an hour". Economically BCI will be comparable to the computer revolution, but it will take time and it will be slow.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 25 Apr 2021 08:44:05 No.13028584 Report

Quoted By: >>13028859

>>13028582
>We won't have VR MMOs and gay shit like that for a very long time
I think that's probably 30 years away at minimum, barring a sudden significant breakthrough, which isn't impossible.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 25 Apr 2021 11:03:58 No.13028859 Report

Quoted By: >>13029537

>>13028584
...said the clueless man, to his clueless crowd.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 25 Apr 2021 16:04:56 No.13029537 Report

Quoted By: >>13029645

>>13028859
Enlighten us then

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 25 Apr 2021 16:41:19 No.13029645 Report

Quoted By: >>13031194

>>13029537
You misunderstand, I am merely part of the clueless crowd.
The difference between you and I, however, is that I recognize my inability to predict the future.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 25 Apr 2021 16:48:05 No.13029673 Report

Quoted By:

>>13026004
Yea that’s pop sci crap, won’t be possible for 100s of years unless we see some drastic changes to electronics

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 25 Apr 2021 22:43:32 No.13031194 Report

Quoted By:

>>13029645
I'm just a using very basic application of the current trend in technological advancement.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 25 Apr 2021 23:18:06 No.13031281 Report

Quoted By: >>13031330

Okay, so we can generally agree that peer-to-peer communication via BCI is a possible future. What laws/systems can we implement to make it as seamless and control-free as possible in the future?

I think an open communication network where no particular idea or thought can "override" another is a good place to start. No outside influence

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 25 Apr 2021 23:29:41 No.13031330 Report

Quoted By: >>13031344

>>13031281
What do you mean by peer to peer? Pretty sure we already have that.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 25 Apr 2021 23:33:11 No.13031344 Report

Quoted By: >>13031367

>>13031330
I'm not into techy lingo I just mean people talking to people as opposed to corporations or governments having influence. BCI Hivemind at peak should be like every human in the world having a conversation at once, and with access to all ideas and perspectives without any barriers or influence.

A hivemind would be too fucking smart/powerful that any external influence will lead it in an unnatural direction. I don't want to see The Borg Presented by Apple Products, I want to see Human Instrumentality.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 25 Apr 2021 23:33:42 No.13031346 Report

Quoted By:

>>13026826
>We've already managed to cause people to see flashes of checkerboard patterns, which is achieved via writing to the visual cortex
Yh this isn't thing, you're retarded.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 25 Apr 2021 23:38:50 No.13031367 Report

Quoted By: >>13031381

>>13031344
See >>13022987. Unless a language can be established, a hive mind would result in the death of individuality and consciousness.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 25 Apr 2021 23:44:55 No.13031381 Report

Quoted By: >>13031485

>>13031367
Well of course, death of individuality is the whole purpose of a hivemind. Consciousness wouldn't die off as it would exist in a network of many brains together. Frankly I think this is acceptable.

If you want to preserve individuality in my opinion the way to do it would to be to somehow have the ability to "log out". Perhaps an external "plug pull". Not everybody is gonna be down for the merge and there's no reason to think you can be born into it depending on how the tech is applied, so individuality will be maintained outside of the hivemind.

A hivemind forcing the population to unify is a different story but that comes down to how it is structured.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Apr 2021 00:01:39 No.13031436 Report

Quoted By: >>13031449

I am an adult with mild-to-severe cerebral palsy (mostly my legs are affected but that's it, I don't talk like a retard and can hold a pen). However, my having cerebral palsy also imposes a number of physical ailments on me. Can a BCI theoretically help me with anything or is it too late once I left my embryo stage and became a fully formed adult?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Apr 2021 00:06:19 No.13031449 Report

Quoted By: >>13031457

>>13031436
I would hope so anon. Rewiring neural pathways is one of the main selling points, now I don't know Cerebral Palsy at all but if it's caused by damaged parts of the brain or lack of communication between brain and muscles, I would really hope that an advanced BCI with read/write would help with that. Unfortunately we're far off from that, but with more companies going into the field maybe we'll see some advances. You're in my prayers for whatever that's worth anon.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Apr 2021 00:10:56 No.13031457 Report

Quoted By:

>>13031449
Thank you for your input and kind words anon.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Apr 2021 00:21:13 No.13031485 Report

Quoted By: >>13031497

>>13031381
You don't understand the problem. If you agree to be part of a hive mind there's no such thing as 'logging out', you no longer have a subject experience outside of the hive. The consciousness of the hive mind doesn't scale with every brain that joins because 'joining' requires a brain to abandon it's model of the world and internal representation for that of the hive mind. By Leibniz's law (the identity of indiscernible) this makes the constituent brains the same brain. It isn't an additive process whereby the hivemind becomes more conscious with every brain that joins. In fact, from studying craniopagus conjoined twins we know it's the opposite. They're less conscious and dumber precisely because their brains are fused, albeit in only one region dedicated to sensory information via a very thin thalamic bridge in the most studied case. A direct brain-to-brain interface that forgoes speech needs to be mediated by a language to preserve consciousness AND intelligence.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 26 Apr 2021 00:25:00 No.13031497 Report

Quoted By:

>>13031485
I will definitely research the points you brought up, thanks anon. I don't see how this would negate external stimulation but maybe I will understand after reading more into these points you've brought up. Meanwhile I'm gonna just watch the thread and let the big boys talk it out.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Mon 26 Apr 2021 00:52:55 No.13031599 Report

Quoted By:

>>13022987
I don't know why that's a problem - the mapping of car to your personal neuralink device just needs to map with roughly what the sender's nerualink device symbol that it sends over is

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