/sci/ - Science & Math » Thread #12787793

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Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 12:56:46 2021 No.12787793 View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>12787797 >>12787882 >>12787958 >>12788092 >>12788494

>have genetic data
>mutates and evolves
>not living
Fuck off! That's more than enough to be a living thing.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 12:59:46 No.12787797 Report

Quoted By: >>12787799 >>12787817 >>12788454

>>12787793
>Has half information of how to replicate
>requires other host to complete DNA and produce virus
>literally just drifting to next place it could infect a host
Computers are more alive than viruses

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 13:00:53 No.12787799 Report

Quoted By:

>>12787797
Right also
>fucks up in replication and makes different product (((mutation)))

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 13:06:52 No.12787817 Report

Quoted By: >>12787889

>>12787797
Doesn't matter.
Self-replication is not necessary for life as long as the thing we're talking about evolves which viruses do.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 13:23:31 No.12787882 Report

Quoted By:

>>12787793
Go take your nobel prize.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 13:26:28 No.12787889 Report

Quoted By: >>12787954

>>12787817
>Self-replication is not necessary for life
It kinda is

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 13:31:31 No.12787904 Report

Quoted By:

Inorganic dead matter -> viruses -> organic living matter.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 13:47:48 No.12787954 Report

Quoted By: >>12787959

>>12787889
Many animals do not self-replicate to reproduce and depend on a female ovaries to complete the other half.
If we had a world of males only, are they all non-living? What about animals born infertile? Are they nonliving?

Just because viruses need to infect before replicating, like we need to have sex, does not make them nonliving. They experience natural selection the same way we do, and that is more than good enough to be living.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 13:48:47 No.12787958 Report

Quoted By: >>12787997

>>12787793
needs to carry out metabolism on its own
>mitochondria cant survive outside of our cells, yet self replicate, carry out metabolism and mutate/evolve
closer, but no cigar, needs to be able to carry out(and sustain) metabolism on its OWN
viruses, even ones with proteins to carry out metabolism, still need a host to reproduce
not alive

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 13:49:03 No.12787959 Report

Quoted By: >>12787972

>>12787954
Your cells self-replicate you idiot

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 13:52:34 No.12787972 Report

Quoted By: >>12787983 >>12788390

>>12787959
They don't undergo natural selection, dumbass.
Can you cut off your hand and watch it replicate and evolve on its own? No.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 13:55:33 No.12787983 Report

Quoted By: >>12787989

>>12787972
sexual reproduction is due to later branches in evolution
>my car runs on gas
>WELL YOUR CAR HAS A GPS SO IT RUNS ON ELECTRICITY
>yes, but it still runs on gas

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 13:57:25 No.12787989 Report

Quoted By: >>12787999 >>12788002

>>12787983
>entirely misses the point
Ok, thanks.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 13:59:48 No.12787997 Report

Quoted By: >>12788014

>>12787958
Why would life need to carry out its own metabolism? As long as natural selection occurs, that's more than good enough for something to be living.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 14:00:03 No.12787999 Report

Quoted By: >>12788037 >>12788465

>>12787989
What point?
Your definition of alive is just shit

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 14:00:32 No.12788002 Report

Quoted By: >>12788020

>>12787989
the fact that we need jizz and eggs to make a new human is an entirely separate process that evolution tacked on at a later date

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 14:03:28 No.12788014 Report

Quoted By: >>12788031

>>12787997
metabolism is the reason why we're not rocks. the ability to convert/break down energy into distinct energy subunits and then make new structures out of said energy subunits is key for life to be considered "living" or "dead"

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 14:04:47 No.12788020 Report

Quoted By: >>12788051

>>12788002
Who cares? It's the main process where natural selection manifests.
Requiring self-replication as a definition of alive is retarded since viruses exist.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 14:07:30 No.12788031 Report

Quoted By:

>>12788014
They are simple enough to not need metabolism anyways, so this requirement is meaningless.
The only thing we need to ask is whether something undergoes natural selection.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 14:09:33 No.12788037 Report

Quoted By:

>>12787999
It doesn't matter when or how we reproduce, as long as we experience natural selection, which viruses do. Hence, they are living.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 14:15:39 No.12788051 Report

Quoted By: >>12788089

>>12788020
>viruses must be considered alive
> self-replication is required to be defined as live
>Requiring self-replication as a definition of alive is retarded since viruses exist
what the hell is with this circular reasoning? its a fucking definition made up of what we can separate from living, non-living, and dead things
-carry out metabolism
-self replicate
-adapt
(ore related to consciousness) -react to changes in its environment

viruses are just slightly more dead than bacteria, but that doesn't give it a place on the tree of life.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 14:27:18 No.12788089 Report

Quoted By: >>12788328

>>12788051
We are discussing the definition of alive in this thread. Yes. Perhaps you haven't noticed yet.
>its a fucking definition made up of what we can separate from living, non-living, and dead things
And it is obviously not sufficient since viruses exist.

Due to them undergoing natural selection, that is more than good enough of a definition to be alive.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 14:28:08 No.12788092 Report

Quoted By:

>>12787793
>be chemical
>react to other chemicals
>become different chemical
Fuck off! That's more than enough to be a living thing.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 15:30:51 No.12788328 Report

Quoted By: >>12788366

>>12788089
they're not alive tho
you just want to change a definition to include some self replicating parasite

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 15:32:37 No.12788332 Report

Quoted By: >>12788385

*like plasmids since they also undergo natural selection to spread

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 15:42:24 No.12788366 Report

Quoted By: >>12788429

>>12788328
What the fuck are you talking about?
We are discussing the definition of alive.
When we have shit like viruses and we can't agree how and where to classify them, that implies we need a better definition.

So, I propose another definition. Anything that undergoes natural selection is alive.

There. This includes viruses, and every traditionally "living" thing.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 15:47:01 No.12788385 Report

Quoted By: >>12788429

>>12788332
No, they do not exist independently and are part of the bacteria which the bacteria itself undergoes natural selection.

Including them would imply that each chromosome within a living being can be classified as a life form, but they all undergo natural selection collectively in their phenotype machine.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 15:48:02 No.12788390 Report

Quoted By: >>12788401 >>12788470

>>12787972
>They don't undergo natural selection, dumbass.
Yes, they do. For example the african red blood cells in places where there's lots of malaria; that's how sickle cell disease came to be, it makes you resistant to malaria.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 15:51:03 No.12788401 Report

Quoted By:

>>12788390
Retard.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 15:57:17 No.12788429 Report

Quoted By: >>12788472

>>12788385
>>12788366
f plasmid, something under your current definition of life would be living
>Anything that undergoes natural selection is alive
plasmids are independent of a bacterial chromosome and can spread between bacteria by exploiting their reproduction mechanisms.
f plasmids undergo natural selection by being made of just DNA(just like viruses) and can spread between bacteria independently of their own replication(just like viruses).
why should the way a loop of DNA is packaged be considered alive in your definition while the other is not?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 15:58:52 No.12788431 Report

Quoted By:

Watch

https://youtu.be/REaoElYMRug

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 16:03:46 No.12788454 Report

Quoted By: >>12788470

>>12787797
>Computers are more alive than viruses
hahaha not even fucking remotely

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 16:07:53 No.12788465 Report

Quoted By:

>>12787999
you don't have a definition thats better

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 16:08:57 No.12788470 Report

Quoted By: >>12788479

>>12788390
>RBCs undergo natural selection within the body
buddy... RBCs dont even have a nucleus
you get sickle cell trait from a mutated gene you got from one of your parents. self-replication for sexual reproduction requires two but, again, it's tacked on for better gene recombination and allows for more diversity than fission(like sickle cell trait instead of anemia due to only one gene copy)

>>12788454
at least a computer virus could conceivably build a computer with enough autism and automation

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 16:09:07 No.12788472 Report

Quoted By: >>12788484

>>12788429
Stop confusing phenotype and genotype.
For the same reasons you cannot call each of your 46 chromosomes independent life forms is the same reason why plasmids are not independent living forms, you fucking dumbass.

The same reason you cannot call a mitochondria an independent living form anymore. It is part of the structure of a cell.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 16:10:49 No.12788479 Report

Quoted By:

>>12788470
>at least a computer virus could conceivably build a computer with enough autism and automation
No, computer viruses are no different from memes.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 16:12:14 No.12788484 Report

Quoted By:

>>12788472
a plasmid is not a chromosome
I literally have a diagram of a plasmid that reproduces outside of binary fission, INDEPENDENT of the host bacteria.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 16:15:31 No.12788494 Report

Quoted By:

>>12787793
the best definition I've heard for life is :
"a chemical system that uses energy to keep itself from reaching chemical equilibrium"

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 04 Mar 2021 17:39:27 No.12788787 Report

Quoted By:

here's an article with a bit more sophistication on the individuality(selfishness, living for the benefit of the cell or for self-replication) of DNA replicators and viral vehicles to explore the living-ness of viruses compared to other non-chromosomal DNA. transformation and plasmid-induced vehicles(conjugation) are inherently down to the cells consenting to pick up or send DNA so their mode of packaging is KEY to distinguishing an f plasmid from a virus in terms of movement and independence.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1369848616300103
viruses are still not alive in a colloquial sense and fall in the quasi-living "certainly not rocks" camp.

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