/sci/ - Science & Math » Thread #12661949

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Anonymous Wed 03 Feb 13:22:36 2021 No.12661949 View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>12661951 >>12661977 >>12662312 >>12662384 >>12663957 >>12665344 >>12665580

>median debt for somebody with an Associate's degree is $19,600
>they will have made enough to break even (compared to somebody with a HS Diploma) after 3 years
>median debt for somebody with a Bachelor's degree is $29,900
>they will have made enough to break even after 1.25 years
>median debt for somebody with a Master's degree is $44,900
>they will have made enough to break even after 1 year
>median debt for somebody with a PhD is $107,500
>they will have made enough to break even after 2 years
Mathematically speaking, why do people think student debt is a bad thing?
>invest $150k and 4 years to make an extra $2+ million over the course of your life
It seems like one of the best investments you could make.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 03 Feb 2021 13:25:00 No.12661951 Report

Quoted By: >>12662004

>>12661949
if you pay to go to grad school you're doing it wrong.
(and yes I understand that median debt after obtaining an MS or PhD may include debt incurred as an undergrad.)

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 03 Feb 2021 13:38:41 No.12661977 Report

Quoted By: >>12662004 >>12662274

>>12661949
This chart ignores several things.
1. That debt is not only dependent on the type of degree but also on the school. Community colleges cost less than Ivy league schools.
2. High-income jobs are mostly found in regions with high living expenses.
The 150,000 $ a year, which would place you at the 95th percentile, must be adjusted for purchasing power. After tax deduction etc. and paying for rent, what remains is a salary when accounted for the purchasing power that is only slightly above those with a high school degree working and living in Ohio or Kentucky.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Wed 03 Feb 2021 13:46:38 No.12662004 Report

Quoted By: >>12662030 >>12662316

>>12661951
Do schools do full rides for grad school?

Also
>starting age of 18 and counting student debt
>associates degree has greater total lifetime earnings than a HS grad by age 39
>bachelors degree has greater total lifetime earnings than an associates degree by age 29
>masters degree has greater total lifetime earnings than a bachelors degree by age 39
>doctoral degree has greater total lifetime earnings than a masters degree by age 42
So even factoring in the heavy debt load and later start time, incurring the debt seems to pay off.

>>12661977
1) Sure, but it's averaged out across all schools so it can be generalized
2) That's going to affect all jobs, not just the high income ones. A retail worker in Massachusetts or New York is likely the be making more than somebody in Ohio or Kentucky. So it should also even out

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 03 Feb 2021 14:02:25 No.12662030 Report

Quoted By: >>12662143

>>12662004
>That's going to affect all jobs, not just the high income ones.
Yes, except that low-income jobs can be found everywhere because they're essential. High-income jobs on the other side are mostly found in regions with (sometimes artificially inflated) high living costs so your income, after adjusting for purchasing power, is considerably lower relative to low-income jobs in general. Even your charts makes it clear that by 50, Phd students will have only earned 60-70 % more than someone with a High School Diploma. Accounting for living costs etc. because someone with a doctoral degree will most likely live in urban regions, will heavily depress that ratio.
>A retail worker in Massachusetts or New York is likely the be making more than somebody in Ohio or Kentucky
They would make more or less the same once purchasing power is accounted for whereas high-income jobs are depressed in respect to both the state and the nation.
>incurring the debt seems to pay off.

Let's assume I go to a somewhat good college. I must stay there for four years to get a Bachelor's degree. The cost per year is 30,000 $ which is in fact below average. Interest rates stand at 2.75 % (as far as I know). The funny thing is that after four years, I will not have 120,000 $ in debts but rather 130,000 $. Considering interest rates, I will have to pay nearly 4,000 $ a year just to ensure that the debt stays the same. Doesn't sound like a big issue? It is apparently one for a lot of people. Again, after accounting for purchasing power, someone with a Bachelor's degree doesn't make much more than someone with a High school diploma, the latter notoriously known for having saved little money. "Living paycheck to paycheck".

Anonymous

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Anonymous Wed 03 Feb 2021 14:44:46 No.12662143 Report

Quoted By: >>12662226

>>12662030
>Yes, except that low-income jobs can be found everywhere because they're essential.
Urbanized areas are going to have more demand for both higher and lower income people, since there are more people to serve.

>They would make more or less the same once purchasing power is accounted for whereas high-income jobs are depressed in respect to both the state and the nation.
A minimum wage employee makes 66% more in Massachusetts vs Kentucky. The cost of living is 16% higher in Massachusetts vs Kentucky. So no, cost of living does not scale directly with income.

>by 50, Phd students will have only earned 60-70 % more than someone with a High School Diploma. Accounting for living costs etc. because someone with a doctoral degree will most likely live in urban regions, will heavily depress that ratio.
A 60% higher income while living in a location with a 15% higher cost of living (comparing non-Boston Mass to Kentucky) is still a significant increase. Especially considering the place with the higher cost of living will generally be much better to live in.
>The cost per year is 30,000 $ which is in fact below average.
This is some really bad math based on a few bad assumptions, ignoring of facts, and bad life decisions
>going to a private school/out of state school instead of an in-state school which is 1/4 to 1/2 the price
>looking at the sticker price and ignoring scholarships, grants, etc
>assuming the person isn't working enough to pay any tuition for 4 years
You can see how bad the math is based on the fact that the median debt for people with a Bachelors is only $29,900, or $4,271 per year. And about 1/3 have no debt at all.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 03 Feb 2021 15:18:20 No.12662226 Report

Quoted By: >>12662279

>>12662143
>A minimum wage employee makes 66% more in Massachusetts vs Kentucky.
You deliberately chose a liberal state with one of the highest minimum wage, scewing the result in your favor.
>A 60% higher income while living in a location with a 15% higher cost of living (comparing non-Boston Mass to Kentucky) is still a significant increase
I can choose rural parts of Kentucky as well and thus nullify your argument. Who says that university graduates must live in cities? They can also live outside of the city and simply travel three hours a day. If you exclude Boston, why should I not exclude Louisville as well?
>This is some really bad math based on a few bad assumptions
The prestige of your college correlates significantly with the earning you can expect later. Conflating Ivy League with Community college may help your argument that college isn't so expensive, yet an associate's degree from a community degree will hardly pay as well as a bachelor's degree from Yale.
>going to a private school/out of state school instead of an in-state school which is 1/4 to 1/2 the price
Settling for a mediocre college if you could go to a better one. For most people, this doesn't make sense.
>looking at the sticker price and ignoring scholarships, grants, etc
What percentage are we talking about here? 10 % of all college students that may qualify for such services? Does this cover all costs?
>assuming the person isn't working enough to pay any tuition for 4 years
Stereotypical boomer argument. I payed for my college in the '70s so you can as well. Ignoring that students must spend more money than just the college fee.
>And about 1/3 have no debt at all.
Eventually, some of them will have payed off the debt, duhhhhh.
>the median debt for people with a Bachelors is only $29,900
That argument encompasses anyone from the age of 20 to 100, rendering it useless. The dramatic inflation in tuition costs also occured over the last 20 years.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 03 Feb 2021 15:32:11 No.12662265 Report

Quoted By:

People bitch about $30k student debt but don’t even bat an eye at financing a new car for the same price.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 03 Feb 2021 15:34:49 No.12662274 Report

Quoted By:

>>12661977
>paying rent
Lol

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 03 Feb 2021 15:36:35 No.12662279 Report

Quoted By:

>>12662226
Nobody cares where you spent your first 2 years of undergrad. Knocking out standardized gen Ed’s at community college and transfering to your 4 year of choice will save you thousands. Transfer students generally have less competition in admissions as well.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 03 Feb 2021 15:39:09 No.12662285 Report

Quoted By:

Usury is a mortal Sin, both giving and taking it.
I, for one, hope as much of the cattle take loans, i wish for damnation upon all retards.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 03 Feb 2021 15:47:00 No.12662312 Report

Quoted By:

>>12661949
>t. 3 associates in liberal arts, physics, computer science
>About to finish my bachelor's finally
>Zero debt
It's an odd kind of feel

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 03 Feb 2021 15:49:36 No.12662316 Report

Quoted By:

>>12662004
I always though PhD students got paid to do research and teach to the tune of some sort of salary that was at least twice their tuition. I feel like if you haven't figured out how to apply for grant money and offset debt after 8 years you are doing something very wrong

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 03 Feb 2021 16:06:21 No.12662363 Report

Quoted By:

The morons who run up $150,000+ student loan debt for a social work degree from a private school are also the ones who are most likely to have street protests and spam the entire internet with their tale of woe. That's what's going on here. Student loans are only an issue for a very small percentage of the population who make really terrible choices and want everyone else to bail them out.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 03 Feb 2021 16:13:43 No.12662384 Report

Quoted By: >>12664530 >>12664543

>>12661949
Because while the guy acquires his PhD and accrues debt, the tradesman works and accumulates wealth. To break even after two years, a PhD would have to give you a starting income about 4 - 5 times that of a tradesman. That doesn't happen for 95+% of PhDs.
The tradesman will also have a few years of job experience and might have went on to get another certificate or similar that increases his income level. Considering that he doesn't have debt and can save from the get go, the PhD will take considerably longer to catch up than two years. Also, once some capital has accrued, the tradesman can spend it on, for example, investments or his own home, while the PhD still has to melt down his debt mountain.
He'll catch up, most likely, but it will take some time.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Wed 03 Feb 2021 23:52:04 No.12663957 Report

Quoted By:

>>12661949
The thinking man's strategy is to drop out of four high schools, that way you incur no debt and earn more than a PhD, without the debt, while also shaving a decade on the time spent studying, as dropping out of high school can be done very quickly.

The only combination to surpass this is to be approximately eight times more uneducated than a high school dropout, but humans can seldom achieve such levels in practice

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Feb 2021 02:36:59 No.12664530 Report

Quoted By:

>>12662384
>He'll catch up, most likely, but it will take some time.
In the long run of your life, that's all that really matters. Also, electricians don't start making decent money until they have gone through an apprenticeship or been certified. By the time they get to that point, the person with the Bachelors degree is done and the person with the PhD is half done.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Feb 2021 02:43:28 No.12664543 Report

Quoted By: >>12664554

>>12662384
Difference is that the tradesman is going to break down in his 40’s and 50’s. Scientists and other intellectual types can work until their minds go, usually in their 70’s unless they cop dementia. It’s also an easier life of wearing comfy shoes and sitting behind a desk.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Feb 2021 02:48:49 No.12664554 Report

Quoted By: >>12664951 >>12666287

>>12664543
I would say sitting hunched at a desk will also wear your body out as fast as the tradesman, since he does standing work his strength and stamina will always be higher, and so his body able to endure more

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Feb 2021 05:36:33 No.12664951 Report

Quoted By: >>12665331

>>12664554
Sitting at a desk isn't nearly as damaging to your body, especially the joints, as being a tradesman. Are you retarded?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Feb 2021 07:38:15 No.12665331 Report

Quoted By: >>12665514

>>12664951
Sitting at a desk for 8 hours a day is extremely damaging to your back. Are you retarded?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Feb 2021 07:40:26 No.12665344 Report

Quoted By: >>12665514

>>12661949
debt is a bad thing but explaining it to dumb millennials and zoomers is too hard so we have to just say 'student debt' to make it personal to them.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Feb 2021 08:54:40 No.12665514 Report

Quoted By:

>>12665331
>sitting at a desk for 8 hours a day
Nobody recommends this and it's easily avoidable. You can't avoid most of the damage done to your body as a tradesman.

It's no longer a question. You are retarded.
>>12665344
Debt isn't bad if the interest rate is lower than what you can earn otherwise. For example, it's better to invest in the stock market (average ROI around 10%) instead of spending all your extra money to pay off your 3% mortgage.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Feb 2021 09:18:07 No.12665580 Report

Quoted By: >>12667249

>>12661949
Because the cost of living takes away the amount of money.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Feb 2021 15:09:56 No.12666287 Report

Quoted By:

>>12664554
You are extremely wrong.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Feb 2021 20:18:00 No.12667249 Report

Quoted By:

>>12665580
A little bit, but not nearly the entirety.

Somebody with a PhD in Boston is living better than somebody with a HS diploma in bumfuck Mississippi

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 05 Feb 2021 05:48:18 No.12669316 Report

Quoted By:

bomp

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