/sci/ - Science & Math » Thread #12649610

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Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 18:12:12 2021 No.12649610 View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>12649639 >>12649683 >>12649687 >>12649714 >>12649827 >>12650358 >>12650429

Nobel Prize winner Roger Penrose thinks that consciousness is the result of the collapse of the wave function at the quantum level inside neurons in the brain.

Is he right?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 18:19:37 No.12649629 Report

Quoted By:

I've run the numbers and I am proud to announce no

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 18:20:27 No.12649634 Report

Quoted By: >>12649645

Consciousness threads should be a bannable offense.
>>>/his/
>>>/x/
>>>/r/eddit

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 18:21:19 No.12649639 Report

Quoted By: >>12649645

>>12649610
What a faggy thing to say

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 18:23:47 No.12649645 Report

Quoted By: >>12649651 >>12649691

>>12649634
>>12649639
>guy is one of the best physicists alive
>received highest award there is
>dudes on /sci/: lmao fag! go back to /x/

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 18:25:54 No.12649651 Report

Quoted By: >>12649671

>>12649645
I never said anything about him, I'm just tired of consciousness spam.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 18:30:17 No.12649671 Report

Quoted By:

>>12649651
You realise there's a hide feature on this website? No, don't use it. Waste your time shitting up the thread instead...

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 18:34:17 No.12649683 Report

Quoted By: >>12649718 >>12649902

>>12649610
Nobel Prize winner Albert Einstein thought that quantum mechanics was bullshit.

My Nobel Laureate is smarter than your Nobel Laureate, and contradicts the fundamental assumptions (quantum wave function collapse) on which his claim is built.

Penrose BTFO.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 18:34:42 No.12649687 Report

Quoted By: >>12649719

>>12649610
What? Didn't Penrose himself state that QM can't be applied to the brain, something about biological processes being too slow or something.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 18:35:58 No.12649691 Report

Quoted By: >>12649853

>>12649645

he is not one of the best physicists alive , maybe one of the faggiest ones

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 18:41:42 No.12649714 Report

Quoted By: >>12649722

>>12649610
There is no evidence to show he is correct. In fact there is zero evidence quantum mechanical effects have anything to do with how the brain works.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 18:42:19 No.12649718 Report

Quoted By: >>12649902

>>12649683
Wrong. He said it was incomplete, not bullshit. Do you people even read?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 18:42:28 No.12649719 Report

Quoted By: >>12650358

>>12649687
Isn't the brain just emergent cellular activity. Nobody can explain why quantum effects aren't influencing cellular chemistry. Cells produce molecules to specifically utilize quantum effects.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 18:43:21 No.12649722 Report

Quoted By: >>12649727 >>12649746 >>12649908 >>12650219

>>12649714
Measurement in QM requires consciousness.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 18:44:49 No.12649727 Report

Quoted By: >>12649730

>>12649722
>Measurement in QM requires consciousness.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 18:46:13 No.12649730 Report

Quoted By: >>12649743 >>12649750

>>12649727
Please point me to any evidence of a wave function collapse (from a superposition of states) happening without a conscious observer.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 18:48:07 No.12649743 Report

Quoted By: >>12649789

>>12649730
>Please point me to any evidence of a wave function collapse (from a superposition of states) happening without a conscious observer.
See: Literally every sub atomic interaction

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 18:49:21 No.12649746 Report

Quoted By:

>>12649722
prove it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 18:50:39 No.12649750 Report

Quoted By: >>12649789

>>12649730
every physical interaction in the universe

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 18:58:34 No.12649789 Report

Quoted By: >>12649793

>>12649743
>>12649750
Have you ever observed the collapse of a wave function? Please tell me where you saw a particle go from a superposition to a single state.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 19:00:30 No.12649793 Report

Quoted By: >>12649818

>>12649789
So in your universe, there's literally no interaction between anything in the whole universe, until a man observes something? Good to know the laws of physics are invalid everywhere else except on Earth, and only if there's humans around.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 19:01:44 No.12649798 Report

Quoted By:

>There is no evid...
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140116085105.htm

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 19:06:36 No.12649818 Report

Quoted By: >>12649843

>>12649793
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measurement_problem

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 19:08:23 No.12649827 Report

Quoted By: >>12649833

>>12649610
He's wrong.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 19:09:12 No.12649833 Report

Quoted By:

>>12649827
Amazing retort. We're done here, this guy says he's wrong, so he must be.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 19:11:06 No.12649843 Report

Quoted By: >>12649857

>>12649818
The measurement problem has nothing to do with it requiring a human observer - that is 100% pop-sci nonsense. It is all about interpreting what the maths is describing.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 19:14:45 No.12649853 Report

Quoted By:

>>12649691
>>>/facebook/momsAgainstVaccines

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 19:15:21 No.12649857 Report

Quoted By: >>12649889

>>12649843
>that is 100% pop-sci nonsense
So Schrödinger, Einstein, Heisenberg and Bohr were all into pop-sci nonsense when they were arguing this stuff?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 19:25:44 No.12649889 Report

Quoted By: >>12649892

>>12649857
You do realise the Schrödinger Cat example was his argument *against* human consciousness being involved right ... right?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 19:27:14 No.12649892 Report

Quoted By: >>12649905

>>12649889
The cat isn't in a superposition of states. Schrodinger misunderstood the problem because at the time the physics wasn't well developed.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 19:27:27 No.12649895 Report

Quoted By: >>12649898

He's not a neuroscientist

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 19:28:16 No.12649898 Report

Quoted By: >>12649919

>>12649895
This isn't neuroscience.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 19:28:57 No.12649902 Report

Quoted By:

>>12649718
>>12649683
Not even. He didn't like copenhagen collapse theory. Which had plenty of flaws that were obvious.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 19:29:32 No.12649905 Report

Quoted By: >>12650202

>>12649892
> The cat isn't in a superposition of states.
bruh

that is literally what that thought experiment is about

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 19:29:56 No.12649908 Report

Quoted By: >>12650231

>>12649722
based

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 19:29:58 No.12649909 Report

Quoted By: >>12649930

neurons are literally just electrolytes go in electrolytes go out i dunno what the FUCK quantum mechanics as got to do with it

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 19:31:42 No.12649919 Report

Quoted By: >>12650186

>>12649898
Claims about consciousness are domain of neuroscience. Not physics. Neuroscience have a rough understanding of consicousness not as a thing but rather a process of ongoing sensory decoding. It has nothing to do with collapse of quantum states. Collapse of quantum states isn't even quantum mechanics, it's one largely outdated means of interpretation.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 19:37:27 No.12649930 Report

Quoted By: >>12649936 >>12649940

>>12649909
>what the FUCK quantum mechanics as got to do with it
Electromagnetism governs all chemical processes which include neurons, and electromagnetism manifests on the quantum scale too, quantum electrodynamics. So there's a clear obvious relationship between the processes on the brain and quantum mechanics.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 19:40:27 No.12649936 Report

Quoted By: >>12649941

>>12649930
If that were true chemistry as a subject wouldn't even exists since every molecular interaction could be explained by physics.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 19:43:09 No.12649940 Report

Quoted By:

>>12649930
Those are purely classic electromagnetic effects but that isn't what Penrose is arguing. He says there could be pure quantum mechanical effects at work in the brain such as entanglement. However there is no evidence to support his guess and in fact the physics is against it because the distances involved are too large.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 19:43:14 No.12649941 Report

Quoted By:

>>12649936
chemistry is just applied physics

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 19:43:31 No.12649944 Report

Quoted By:

>collapse of the wave function

literally means just "the die is cast".

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 21:10:55 No.12650186 Report

Quoted By:

>>12649919
Neuroscience correlates with consciousness, it doesn't explain it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 21:13:04 No.12650202 Report

Quoted By: >>12651052

>>12649905
I mean the cat isn't in a coherent superposition of states. It's a collection of particles and their interactions means the QM effects are no longer noticeable.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 21:19:21 No.12650219 Report

Quoted By: >>12650271

>>12649722
i bet you also think that "observing" in QM means literally watching with your eyes

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 21:24:04 No.12650231 Report

Quoted By: >>12650338

>>12649908
philosophers occupy themselves with retardness like onthological arguments for god or simulation hypothesis and because of that they cannot be taken seriously.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 21:34:03 No.12650271 Report

Quoted By: >>12650279 >>12650353

>>12650219
Observing = disturbing the system.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 21:36:44 No.12650279 Report

Quoted By:

>>12650271
i know that

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 21:49:03 No.12650338 Report

Quoted By:

>>12650231
Better to be a retard than to willingly lock yourself into a singular path of thinking. The mere fact there is so much shit we can't explain should be proof enough that it's hubris to shit on philosophers questioning perceived reality

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 21:53:05 No.12650353 Report

Quoted By: >>12650382

>>12650271
What system? There are no isolated system in QM.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 21:54:03 No.12650358 Report

Quoted By:

>>12649610
>>12649719
Though Penrose's ideas about physical micro brain structures directly interacting with quantum phenomena are obviously flawed, I hate the fact that we all sort of accept this "emergent cellular activity" idea. It smoothes over so many unkowns.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 22:01:08 No.12650382 Report

Quoted By: >>12650468

>>12650353
A system is a particle in a superposition of states.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 22:15:17 No.12650429 Report

Quoted By:

>>12649610
Consciousness is brought about by constipation. This is obvious if you just take the time to look at the data.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 31 Jan 2021 22:29:16 No.12650468 Report

Quoted By:

>>12650382
There are no "particle" in superposition. That's not a system. A system means the entire thing. A cat in the particular means the system is the cat, the box, the room, the person, everything. Its trillions and trillions of particles interacting with each other every second. There's no single particle in a superposition.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 01 Feb 2021 01:50:58 No.12651052 Report

Quoted By:

>>12650202
Oh so you mean the rest of the system has collapsed the wave function of the cat without any human observation required...

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