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Anonymous Tue 15 Dec 17:01:01 2020 No.12468693 View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>12470284 >>12470397 >>12472649

I'm still trying to wrap my head around entropy
Which would have more entropy, a jungle or the Kola Super Borehole?

I'm thinking it would be the borehole, because it has less inside of it and can be considered more organized than the Jungle.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Dec 2020 23:56:02 No.12470284 Report

Quoted By: >>12470293

>>12468693
using the term entropy in non-equilibrium systems of real world (at least before the theoretical heat death of universe happens) is quite tricky, better term is "level of entropy production" because we talk about steady-states far from thermodynamic equilibrium.
I think your assumption is correct, a jungle is left untouched for hundreds of years, and achieved a stable steady-state throughout the whole area. A borehole a newly dug and thus prone to landslides, watering, built-up etc. that can skyrocket the entropy production.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Dec 2020 23:57:52 No.12470293 Report

Quoted By: >>12470372 >>12476099

>>12470284
oh just read your msg again, it's the opposite of what you claim, the borehole has less entropy than a jungle-mess

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 16 Dec 2020 00:19:07 No.12470372 Report

Quoted By: >>12470417

>>12470293
No, it has not. More order = less entropy, and vise versa

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 16 Dec 2020 00:27:21 No.12470397 Report

Quoted By: >>12475317

>>12468693
That's a good question. My sense is living systems are a incredibly complex systems of chemical and biological process which took millions of years to build up and organize (similar to an untapped oilfield or mineral vein) and therefore are in a low entropy state.relative to areas with less biodiversity.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 16 Dec 2020 00:31:13 No.12470417 Report

Quoted By:

>>12470372
yes, the borehore has more order, and therefore less entropy. OP claims borehole has more entropy

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 16 Dec 2020 11:18:04 No.12471880 Report

Quoted By: >>12472513

the borehole has more entropy and it's not even close

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 16 Dec 2020 15:35:11 No.12472513 Report

Quoted By: >>12475317

>>12471880
Why would the borehole have more entropy? There’s a lot more going on in a jungle than in a massive pit.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 16 Dec 2020 16:16:54 No.12472649 Report

Quoted By:

>>12468693
Ive read that the words is something like 'transformation'.

Between a solid, a liquid and a gas, the gas has the most entropy.
Why?
Because the particles in the gas are moving around constantly without constraing, as opposed to the solid, where they are chained in place by molecular bonds.

There are several identical microstates in both the gas and solid, but the solid only explores a very small state-space, whereas the gas moves between states constantly.

So.. analogously the rainforest (for me) is exploring state-space much more rapidly than the bore-hole. As such I would claim that the rainforest is increasing its entropy much faster and possibly has higher entropy.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 16 Dec 2020 19:56:10 No.12473377 Report

Quoted By:

i think this example is nonsense.

how should we compare entropy? for a volume element? for a mass located in the system? a number of particles?
do we want to compare a pin-sized event with a huge hole? or the earth located around the hole? so how much soil?

and what exactly do we want to compare?
thermodynamics is the description of change of state.
which of the two systems has traveled how much on the way to an equilibrium?

at equilibrium, the value of entropy has maximized and the energetic state variables describing the system have minimized.
do we want to compare one section at a time on the surface of the planet with the same environmental conditions?
which aspects are considered, which are neglected? what is the average ambient temperature? what about the radiation of heat by the sun?
the weather? what about humidity of surrounding air? are we looking at a special event?

why exactly do we actually try to compare entropy through human perception on an macroscopic level?

there is a nice example.
an effervescent tablet hangs as a weight on a pendulum and swings.
a second effervescent tablet is thrown into a glass of water.
both cases are recorded and played backwards.
human intuition can therefore already very well determine which processes are almost reversible and which are practically completely irreversible.

so where does desperation and such crazy comparisons always come from?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 17 Dec 2020 07:49:20 No.12475317 Report

Quoted By:

>>12472513
take a large chunk of matter, big enough to form the borehole -- or, alternatively, a patch of jungle (you'll need a reasonable diverse distribution of elements but it's not relevant). pack it in a big box. let the atoms make all posible configurations in that box, list them. how many of them look like the borehole? of course, a very small subset of the (mindblowingly huge) total possibilities. but it should be clear that the subset of configurations that end as a functioning jungle is WAY smaller.
>>12470397
this man understands.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 17 Dec 2020 14:51:27 No.12476077 Report

Quoted By:

The bore hole would have higher potential energy than flat ground so lower entropy, but the jungle has many high potential energy proteins and chemicals that a bore hole would not.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 17 Dec 2020 14:56:48 No.12476099 Report

Quoted By:

>>12470293
at a micro level the jungle is farther from total entropy than a borehole. But the jungle is increasing entropy around it.

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