/sci/ - Science & Math » Thread #12215147

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Humans are evolving an extra artery in the forearms

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 15:05:57 2020 No.12215147 View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>12215161 >>12215234 >>12215239 >>12215547 >>12215757 >>12215760 >>12215785 >>12215898 >>12216096 >>12216355 >>12216529 >>12216990 >>12217091 >>12217536 >>12218379 >>12221848

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/joa.13224
The median artery appears in fetal development and disappears in childhood as the radial and ulnar arteries replace it. The incidence rate of it persisting in adulthood alongside the radial and ulnar arteries in whites has moved from 8% to 35% in three generations, indicating that there is a strong selection pressure against not having it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 15:12:05 No.12215161 Report

Quoted By: >>12215212 >>12215405 >>12216976

>>12215147
I have no idea what you're talking about but if we're evoling a third artery in the wrist/hand it's probably just to improve blood flow which likely improves the health of the hands and fingers under strenuous use such as computers and cellphones.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 15:28:52 No.12215212 Report

Quoted By: >>12215240

>>12215161
Three generations to go from 8% to 35% inducates that the whole thing probably started around 1850-1900.
The main consequence of this afaik is that the Allen's Test in medicine may need to be redesigned.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 15:36:05 No.12215234 Report

Quoted By: >>12215240 >>12215405 >>12215828

>>12215147
>indicating that there is a strong selection pressure against not having it.
This is pretty clamped tb, qh. Do you really believe "selective pressure" is the mechanism? What, all the men who didn't have it got drafted and died at a hgiher rate, were otherwise exterminated in one of the many genocides of the last 200 years, or what?

Fucking hell science has becoming filled with dressed up magical thinking.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 15:37:20 No.12215239 Report

Quoted By: >>12215345 >>12215405

>>12215147
>indicating that there is a strong selection pressure against not having it.
Is this a world wide phenomenon or just linked to change in work in some countries? In the west this was the time we went from early heavy industry to later industrial development with increased clerical jobs.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 15:37:23 No.12215240 Report

Quoted By: >>12215405 >>12215436

>>12215234
>>12215212
yeah probably increased childhood nutrition

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 16:13:41 No.12215345 Report

Quoted By: >>12215405

>>12215239

>this was the time we went from early heavy industry to later industrial development with increased clerical jobs.
aka strenuous use of the hands and wrists. I have a retained median artery, use my computer for several hours daily, alongside my physical labour job, and have never experienced any notable hand or wrist strains.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 16:15:49 No.12215353 Report

Quoted By:

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 16:32:47 No.12215405 Report

Quoted By: >>12215416 >>12215436 >>12215505 >>12215574 >>12219332 >>12221918

>>12215161
>>12215234
>>12215239
>>12215240
>>12215345
Lamarckianism

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 16:36:22 No.12215416 Report

Quoted By: >>12215436

>>12215405
>Lamarckianism is now a strong selection pressure
Amusing.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 16:43:46 No.12215436 Report

Quoted By: >>12215466

>>12215405
>>12215240

>>12215416
I think he meant that change in lifestyle will lead to different expression in genes in the next generation

for ex, if I took a drug to kill all of my XX sperm to ensure a son, then my son's genes would be expressed differently (since the drug would kill a certain portion of the XY sperm as well) than if I never took the drug and just had a son by chance.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 16:55:18 No.12215466 Report

Quoted By: >>12215479 >>12219332

>>12215436
In theory, but none of the lifestyle changes they mention can work without Lamarckianism. It's more likely that the >1% of people with better hand dexterity from a median artery suddenly acquired between 1850-1950 an advantage in acquiring mates.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 16:58:23 No.12215479 Report

Quoted By: >>12215487

>>12215466
>everyone without an extra artery died without reproducing in the 1800's
oh crap I replied to an actual retard

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 17:00:16 No.12215487 Report

Quoted By:

>>12215479
Not everybody, just proportionally more than the people who had an extra artery. Two artery people haven't gone extinct, they're just being outbred.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 17:08:25 No.12215505 Report

Quoted By: >>12215542 >>12215544 >>12216450 >>12219332

>>12215405
there is no proof that lamarchianism is false, and there is much reason to believe that a complex organism would have influence over it's genetic expression in sperm, and that such a capable organism would fare EXPONENTIALLY better than one that couldn't express itself that way.

reality is not a black and white reality of X or Y being true, eukaryotic reproduction is very likely a mix of 50/50 random variance and lamarckianism inheritance of certain features. it could be argued that the explicit reason why sperm are continuously produced, as opposed to static like egg cells, is that it allows the male testes to tweak sperm DNA to the bodies experiences.

is it unreasonable to posit that the body could detect something, such as increased use and strain of the arms and hands, and increase express genetics for improved bloodflow to those regions in the sperm?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 17:22:19 No.12215542 Report

Quoted By: >>12215548

>>12215505
This sounds like schizoposting, but my own intuition has also led me to formulate a similar hypothesis throughout the years. I also believe we are not simply evolved from some random mutations, some biological mechanism might make it so that genes that are.more "actively transcribed" get more.likelyhood to be passed.onwards.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 17:23:35 No.12215544 Report

Quoted By: >>12215828 >>12219332

>>12215505
>there is no proof that lamarchianism is false, and there is much reason to believe that a complex organism would have influence over it's genetic expression in sperm, and that such a capable organism would fare EXPONENTIALLY better than one that couldn't express itself that way.

This, very unclamped post. I postulated this sort of embedded low level logic which derives a fitness model from the nervous system or some other inputs, and tailors itself over time accordingly (in preparation for drought, famine, migration, etc, for example with changes in magnetic field). This goes well beyond epigenetics, it's like a limited form of autoevolution.

Everyone was too clamped though and either went blank or called me a retard. Fact is, it just makes sense.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 17:24:33 No.12215547 Report

Quoted By:

>>12215147
>extra artery
How ‘bout we grow an extra dick and pussy

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 17:24:51 No.12215548 Report

Quoted By: >>12215828

>>12215542
>Schizo
Maybe to a bunch of stupid clamps. Dumb mofos be thinkin smart mofos be crazy mofos.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 17:35:02 No.12215574 Report

Quoted By: >>12215612

>>12215405
Statistically, if something raises an organisms efficacy by say 2%, then across that population even if no organisms get purged from being too weak, the slightly better ones will reproduce more

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 17:46:06 No.12215612 Report

Quoted By: >>12215626 >>12215682 >>12215805

>>12215574
2% increase due to bloodflow to the hands isn't enough to cause a 27% increased trait occurrence within 3 generations.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 17:48:37 No.12215626 Report

Quoted By:

>>12215612
Waaah waah your numbers don't fit this example

I don't give a shit

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 18:07:15 No.12215682 Report

Quoted By:

>>12215612
Going from 8% to 35% is adding 337.5% of 8% to the already existing 8%.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 18:29:11 No.12215757 Report

Quoted By: >>12215766 >>12215807

>>12215147
So us coomers are a new species?

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 18:31:13 No.12215760 Report

Quoted By:

>>12215147
>why yes I have a median artery, how could you tell?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 18:32:52 No.12215766 Report

Quoted By:

>>12215757
Lol

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 18:36:47 No.12215785 Report

Quoted By: >>12215848

>>12215147
>evolving
Evolution refers to an species becoming another you mouthbreather nigger, like a bacteria becoming a fly
What youre describing is just natural selection, if that, its already conceivable by pre existing info in the dna

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 18:40:17 No.12215805 Report

Quoted By:

>>12215612
How do you know that for certain?

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 18:40:37 No.12215807 Report

Quoted By:

>>12215757

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 18:45:35 No.12215828 Report

Quoted By: >>12216022 >>12217488 >>12218480 >>12219981

>>12215234
>>12215544
>>12215548
wtf does "clamped" mean?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 18:51:59 No.12215848 Report

Quoted By: >>12215909

>>12215785
No it doesn't. There is macroevolution, which includes speciation, but there's also microevolution which describes the population-level genetic shifts caused by natural pressures.

Undergrads get out

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 19:01:01 No.12215898 Report

Quoted By: >>12216651

>>12215147
Why is science so pseudoscientific nowadays? Instead of jumping on the conclusion that we're magically evolving it, how about considering the less complex version instead and saying that we've always had it, its just that the restricted nutrition during the plague centuries favored these with a lower metabolic expense so they starved last, but now that we're in a caloric abundance it's finally making a comeback? Primates must surely have it to assist them with climbing and holding onto things, no? So we've rather devolved it temporarily rather than magically evolving it right now.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 19:02:31 No.12215909 Report

Quoted By:

>>12215848
>but there's also microevolution
there is not, this is just a cope invented to make it seem like evolution exists

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 19:23:24 No.12216022 Report

Quoted By:

>>12215828
Unclamp.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 19:33:37 No.12216096 Report

Quoted By:

>>12215147
That's ubercool, I guess it select for using keyboard and most ubercool programmer of the decade tends to be all serm in clinical conception.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 20:28:43 No.12216355 Report

Quoted By:

>>12215147
Maybe kids just use their hands more than they used to in the past. They use phones while in the past they would use their entire body to play outside with their friends which causes extra strain on the median artery at an early age to perform better.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 20:51:25 No.12216450 Report

Quoted By:

>>12215505
I've seen evidence that even the father can have a lamarckian impact on the offspring. The whole thing makes perfect sense, the parents impart their state of stress/abundance on the child so it becomes more prepared to struggle/flourish.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 21:13:08 No.12216529 Report

Quoted By:

>>12215147
I seriously doubt we are using our hand more now than in the past as some here are suggesting, it is more likely just improved diet, same as height and improved health in general.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 21:41:05 No.12216651 Report

Quoted By:

>>12215898
Humans don't lose/gain nerves due to malnutrition

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 23:08:27 No.12216976 Report

Quoted By: >>12217021

>>12215161
I don't see how it could be so advantageous to cause such a rapid increase.
More likely it comes either from aboriginal admixture, or they used different ethnicities altogether, who happen to have it more common.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 23:15:08 No.12216990 Report

Quoted By: >>12217072

>>12215147
>2020
>selection pressure

Dont be a retard, we defeated natural selection centuries ago

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 23:25:34 No.12217021 Report

Quoted By:

>>12216976
industrial revolution was pretty harsh, could have simply been that the wristlets couldn't handle the manual labour

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 23:29:10 No.12217042 Report

Quoted By: >>12217052 >>12218288

it has to do with schoolwork

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 23:31:33 No.12217052 Report

Quoted By: >>12218288

>>12217042
>12217042?
>it has to do with schoolwork
>>12217042
>>12217042

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 23:38:20 No.12217072 Report

Quoted By:

>>12216990
Now its unnatural selection

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 23:44:42 No.12217091 Report

Quoted By:

>>12215147
Maybe people in the old days just didn't try to measure it as accurately...

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 10 Oct 2020 23:51:54 No.12217119 Report

Quoted By: >>12218288

this study is meaningless as it compares the populations of past australia and present, and the population of australia has changed a lot due to immigration over the past 75 years

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 11 Oct 2020 02:01:37 No.12217488 Report

Quoted By:

>>12215828
It means the poster has schizophrenia

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 11 Oct 2020 02:19:30 No.12217536 Report

Quoted By: >>12217623 >>12218288

>>12215147
This can have many different causes. These are the ones I can come up with at the top of my head:

>differences in genetic expression due to a very specific and widespread chemical interference from modern living
>higher frequency of mixed race babies
>higher usage of the specific arteries causing them to not disappear (there has been research into people developing extra bone tissue at the end of the skull due to mobile phone usage)

Lamarckian auto evolution on an individual level seems highly unlikely. Auto evolution happens on population level and often goes awry. Strong selection pressure doesn’t make sense, because it doesn’t seem to significantly affect fitness or cause phenotypic differentiation.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 11 Oct 2020 02:54:31 No.12217623 Report

Quoted By: >>12218288

>>12217536
I think the likely causes are racial mix changing, nutrition or something like modern people not using their hands as much or in a different way that causes the changes like say lower muscle mass or more finger use. Something like kids writing and using phones or keyboards while having less work on the upper muscles or something. Well besides the obvious like bad data from 3 generations ago or bad data from now.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 11 Oct 2020 07:47:08 No.12218288 Report

Quoted By:

>>12217623
>>12217536
>>12217119
see>>12217042
>>12217052

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 11 Oct 2020 08:21:53 No.12218379 Report

Quoted By:

>>12215147
>selection pressure
I can guarantee you there's no Darwinian selection pressure for it
nobody is dying childless because they lack a forearm vein

it's most likely how we use hands, if you use muscles, you get swole, if you don't, they atrophy
all soft tissues can act this way to more or lesser extend
it would be interesting to see which groups regain the extra vein, I suppose

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 11 Oct 2020 09:02:07 No.12218480 Report

Quoted By: >>12219350

>>12215828
it's a forced meme about clamping the umbilical cord immediately after birth having a negative effect on the child.
so something 'clamped' is bad.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 11 Oct 2020 11:43:14 No.12218875 Report

Quoted By: >>12219334

Some literature (and I am no expert) suggests it has negative implications for carpal tunnel syndrome. In that case it should be deselected for in the keyboard generation.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 11 Oct 2020 15:38:42 No.12219332 Report

Quoted By: >>12219457 >>12219725

>>12215544
>>12215505
>>12215466
>>12215405
Lamarckism has been proven false again and again (Weismann's experiment for example).

Experiences have ZERO effect on the actual genetic sequence. However, they can have an effect on its expression, which is the basis of epigenetics. Hereditary elements such as chromatin marks pass into the germ cells which are involved in gene regulation.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 11 Oct 2020 15:40:11 No.12219334 Report

Quoted By:

>>12218875
The keyboard generation isn't getting laid...

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 11 Oct 2020 15:46:04 No.12219350 Report

Quoted By:

>>12218480
The clamp is reductive in character. It retards, it diminishes, it modulates, it attenautes. It prunes down the potential of that which is clamps.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 11 Oct 2020 16:34:10 No.12219457 Report

Quoted By: >>12219469 >>12219495

>>12219332
Pseudoscience

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 11 Oct 2020 16:38:11 No.12219469 Report

Quoted By: >>12219660

>>12219457
Are you going to provide any solid argument?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 11 Oct 2020 16:46:00 No.12219495 Report

Quoted By:

>>12219457
Clamped.
Clamped.
Clamped.
>>>/b/

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 11 Oct 2020 17:44:50 No.12219660 Report

Quoted By: >>12219734

>>12219469
Lamarckism, including "epigenetics" is pseudoscience.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 11 Oct 2020 18:10:04 No.12219725 Report

Quoted By: >>12219871

>>12219332
>epigenetics
wouldn't epigenetics just be a form of lamarckism.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 11 Oct 2020 18:13:07 No.12219734 Report

Quoted By: >>12219930

>>12219660
>meiotic life forms, a group that evolved a means to directly influence their genetic output, never evolved any other capability to influence their genetic output.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 11 Oct 2020 19:11:08 No.12219871 Report

Quoted By:

>>12219725
Debatable, but lamarck originally suggested that the genes were directly being changed by the environment, not their expression.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 11 Oct 2020 19:32:33 No.12219930 Report

Quoted By:

>>12219734
I don't know about all meiotic life, but definitely all vertebrates

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 11 Oct 2020 19:51:35 No.12219981 Report

Quoted By:

>>12215828
If you don’t know what it is you probably are one

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 12 Oct 2020 06:54:32 No.12221848 Report

Quoted By:

>>12215147
A fucking extra artery. Meanwhile 25% of people still can't build muscle. Nature should get their priorities right

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 12 Oct 2020 07:38:32 No.12221918 Report

Quoted By:

>>12215405
You are a colossal retard

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