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Artificial Muscle Robotics

Anonymous Sun 13 Sep 22:32:11 2020 No.12116562 View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>12116616 >>12117469 >>12117802 >>12118631 >>12118694 >>12121534 >>12121950 >>12127388 >>12127415 >>12127746 >>12127877

Is there any future or interesting developments in artificial muscles?

Been doing some research and all the systems I've seen suffer from some kind of major issue.
PAMs (pic). Require an air delivery system, and scale (smaller) really badly
HASEL. Require massive voltages to activate
Nylon. Respond to heat, making actuation slow and extension even more so, require cooling.
....

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 13 Sep 2020 22:46:43 No.12116616 Report

Quoted By:

>>12116562
you could opt for pizoelectric piston with voltage control and spring loaded counter so it forces return. its not great but doesnt require tons of volts and isnt slow

other than that its fancy electrically reactive gells that will never be on the market in your life time

Anonymous

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Anonymous Mon 14 Sep 2020 03:23:12 No.12117469 Report

Quoted By: >>12118631

>>12116562
We already had artificial muscles for decades in the form of hydraulic systems. In fact the PAMs type in your pic uses the same principle of hydraulic machines. But you're clearly talking about soft machines, which the only benefit for a muscle like machine is smaller scale.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 14 Sep 2020 03:31:50 No.12117501 Report

Quoted By: >>12118631

Why not just use real muscles?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 14 Sep 2020 04:52:28 No.12117752 Report

Quoted By: >>12118631

Nitinol

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 14 Sep 2020 05:11:27 No.12117802 Report

Quoted By:

>>12116562
They showed nanowires a few years ago that were apparently strogger than muscle fibers, biocompatible and actuated by electricity. I don't know how much energy they consumed.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 14 Sep 2020 11:31:34 No.12118631 Report

Quoted By:

>>12116562
>>massive voltages
don't be a pussy. 10s of KV isn't too bad and they leave all those other muscles in the dust. There are indications they could get even better. If you make them smaller the voltage gets lower.
>>12117752
sucks
>>12117501
because they tend to die and rot. Stinky!
>>12117469
hydraulics are just a transmission

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 14 Sep 2020 11:52:48 No.12118694 Report

Quoted By: >>12118704 >>12128941

>>12116562
>Nylon. Respond to heat, making actuation slow and extension even more so, require cooling.
Is this the fishing line stuff? I was wondering how useful it would be to use as thin as possible nylon strands, each intertwined with its own metal strand. The metal strand would respond to an electric current by heating up(I forget what the term is, but it's what happens in toasters), which would be what heats the individual nylon strand that's it's responsible for.
The nylon strand would respond quickly to the heat because it's as thin as possible and has a high surface area to volume ratio.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 14 Sep 2020 11:57:16 No.12118704 Report

Quoted By: >>12128941

>>12118694
thermally based artificial muscles are worthless for robotics. Efficiency is shit. Response time is shit. Takes time to get rid of the heat.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 14 Sep 2020 17:49:13 No.12120001 Report

Quoted By:

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1508909
Also possible with niob and carbon.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Sep 2020 00:24:09 No.12121534 Report

Quoted By: >>12121549

>>12116562
Do like the spoders do to move

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Sep 2020 00:26:57 No.12121549 Report

Quoted By:

>>12121534
they use muscles.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Sep 2020 02:27:07 No.12121950 Report

Quoted By:

>>12116562
Thin film dielectric elastomers. I remember reading a paper a while ago where the authors got the actuation voltage down to ~12V.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Sep 2020 07:48:08 No.12122822 Report

Quoted By: >>12124851

Yeah sure, ignore my suggestions which were shown to work. Hurrrrrr

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Sep 2020 08:52:57 No.12123019 Report

Quoted By: >>12124095

What's wrong with regular old electric motors? Tons of ways to make a linear actuator with those and you can put it in a soft shell if you really want to use it as a prosthetic.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Sep 2020 08:55:15 No.12123024 Report

Quoted By:

Is the I can't build muscle shit poster evolving?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Sep 2020 16:40:47 No.12124095 Report

Quoted By:

>>12123019
they aren't very torque dense. But really nothing. Linear actuation is a meme.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Sep 2020 20:00:43 No.12124851 Report

Quoted By:

>>12122822
they're shit. Also did you know that you can make HASELs pretty fucking easily? You can make them by fusing plastic sheet together, gluing on literally anything conductive to it, and injecting them with mineral oil. For a power supply you can use an ionizer. They are like tree fiddy on chinese websites. Although you only get off on control. But you could just as easily build your very own high voltage power supply. You can also buy purpose built high voltage power supplies from electronics supplies, but they're expensive because they're made for shit like electron microscopes.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 16 Sep 2020 06:55:42 No.12126839 Report

Quoted By:

How do I build muscle?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 16 Sep 2020 12:05:33 No.12127388 Report

Quoted By: >>12130009

>>12116562
Why not just use springs?
For situations where you only need the extra strength in one direction, you can use the opposing muscle to load the spring then let the spring help you with the lift.
I imagine the most common muscle groups would be biceps/anterior deltoids, lower back, and quadriceps.
You could use linear springs like in your pic or use spiral springs located at the hinge.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 16 Sep 2020 12:16:27 No.12127415 Report

Quoted By: >>12127766

>>12116562
>Is there any future or interesting developments in artificial muscles?
I hope this becomes a thing, I can't build muscle

Anonymous

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Anonymous Wed 16 Sep 2020 15:12:48 No.12127746 Report

Quoted By: >>12128941 >>12130009

>>12116562
There was a paper a while ago about using COCE - cyclic olefin copolymer elastomer - bonding it with HDPE whilst stretching it.

Basically turns into a plastic thread with different conductivity.

The elastomer compresses the other one under the tiniest amount of heat and it curls up.

Crazy strength/weight ratio.

the COCE is under the brand name Topas - but it's not available easily

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 16 Sep 2020 15:19:57 No.12127766 Report

Quoted By:

>>12127415
what for?

Anonymous

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Anonymous Wed 16 Sep 2020 16:01:30 No.12127877 Report

Quoted By:

>>12116562
Electroactive Polymer Muscles
>minimal heat
>compartmentalized tension in fibers spread the workload across the structure, not just one or a few points of weakness.
>looks and functions most similar to muscle
>can be made of nearly any flexible compound, including nanotubes and magnetorheological fluids, not just polymers and air.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 16 Sep 2020 21:53:07 No.12128941 Report

Quoted By: >>12130009

>>12127746
I was thinking about that. The fishing line muscles sound promising to me(>>12118694), but >>12118704 thinks that they're not the way forward.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 17 Sep 2020 04:22:19 No.12130009 Report

Quoted By: >>12130188

>>12127388
co-contraction can be used to increase stiffness. Dynamically controlling stiffness is useful for robots. You can tune the stiffness of the leg during walking. If your response time is fast enough you can tune stiffness of an arm to be high when doing work and tune it down if it accidentally hits some one.
>>12127746
>>12128941
thermally based actuators are worthless. Efficiency cannot be anything except utter crap because you end up with a heat engine. And a pretty bad heat engine at that. The thermal mass means the responsiveness of the actuator is crap. You won't see fishing line actuators used in real world robots except for simple latch release mechanisms because of how inefficient they are.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 17 Sep 2020 05:42:29 No.12130188 Report

Quoted By:

>>12130009
Thanks for telling us, bud. Don't get yourself too worked up.

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