/sci/ - Science & Math » Thread #12043824

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Anonymous Mon 24 Aug 18:45:10 2020 No.12043824 View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>12043913

Does Bell's theorem rule out the possibility of ALL hidden variable theories?

What if there is a really complex function inside the photons?

Anonymous

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Anonymous Mon 24 Aug 2020 19:09:29 No.12043913 Report

Quoted By: >>12043937

>>12043824
I don't think so, I can never find the source, but I'm reminded of a paper that postulated they could increase the resolvability of a measurement of some quantum systems by choosing to measure the system under different periodicities of measurement.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Aug 2020 19:13:52 No.12043932 Report

Quoted By:

The first thing they tell you in QM 101: yes

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Aug 2020 19:14:43 No.12043937 Report

Quoted By: >>12044222

>>12043913
I don't know what half of those words mean.

Does Bell's inequality assume a 'simple' hidden variable?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Aug 2020 19:15:17 No.12043940 Report

Quoted By: >>12043953

no it just rules out local hidden variables

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Aug 2020 19:18:07 No.12043953 Report

Quoted By: >>12043959 >>12043963

>>12043940
All of them? Does it explicitly say that no matter how complex the hidden variables might be, they can never violate the inequality?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Aug 2020 19:19:42 No.12043959 Report

Quoted By: >>12043972

>>12043953
it rules out the possibility of any LOCAL hidden variables. it says that any hidden variables, if they exist, must be nonlocal

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Aug 2020 19:21:14 No.12043963 Report

Quoted By: >>12043972

>>12043953
It's just extremely unlikely that something MORE complicated is the answer. This is never the answer. You're just adding epicycles.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Aug 2020 19:23:31 No.12043972 Report

Quoted By: >>12044023

>>12043959
Yes I am going under the assumption that we are talking about local hidden variables. Can you please explain to me how Bell managed to formulate his theorem to include every possible type of local variable?

>>12043963
These aren't epicycles. What if photos are made up of smaller particles which result in a polynomial hidden variables?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Aug 2020 19:37:48 No.12044023 Report

Quoted By: >>12044057

>>12043972
>can you spoonfeed me something I can easily find in about 100+ resources online
do your own homework. the answer is easily attainable

El Arcón

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El Arcón Mon 24 Aug 2020 19:42:46 No.12044045 Report

Quoted By: >>12044063 >>12044557

NO!!! Bell's theorem assumes sin eigenstates are orthonormal when it is not known that the states are orthonormal. In a theory with orthonormal spin states, hidden variables are ruled out by Bell's theorem. However, in a theory in which they are only "Dirac orthonormal," which is a subset of things that are "not orthorormal," as in
$\big\{\text{Dirac orthonormal things} \big\}\subset \big\{\text{Things that are not orthonormal} \big\}$
then local hidden variables are allowed. To see why this is so important, note that the most unsatisfactory feature of the quantum theory is the inability to find analytical functions for spin eigenstates. The need to introduce spinors is where the whole discrepancy between the intuitive formalism of classical theory breaks down. One expects that a "more complete" quantum theory would have analytical eigenstates for bosons and fermions. As it is, we have an unsavory workaround with the multiplectic Pauli and Dirac spinors.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Aug 2020 19:46:29 No.12044057 Report

Quoted By:

>>12044023
it's not even right

El Arcón

El Arcón Mon 24 Aug 2020 19:48:11 No.12044062 Report

Quoted By: >>12044557

cont.

It's likely that the neighborhood of infinity will allow us to write analytical spin eigenfunctions. The problem writing spinor states is that the components of a spinor vary in anti-phase whereas the components of a vector vary in phase. I think you can generate anti-phase variation with the minus sign relating $b\leftrightarrow\widehat\infty-b$ . Overall, i have the goal to show that quantum motions derive from the maximum action solutions to the stationary action principle (Hamilton's principle) and that classical motions derive from the minimum action solutions. To obtain maximal action, one would create a transfinite domain
$(-b,b)\leftrightarrow(\widehat\infty-b,\widehat\infty)\cup (-\widehat\infty,-\widehat\infty+b)$

I take the value inf-hat out of the domain to account for the position of the observer in the theory. Usually we impose the L2 condition on quantum position states because we can never observer a particle at infinity, but an observer can never observe a particle at his own location either and this is an important boundary condition which should be used to complement the L2 boundary condition. With new boundary conditions, one expects to find new physics. I think this piecewise domain generates the structure needed for analytical spin states instead of matrix states.

The entire structure of physical "position" Hilbert spaces is derived from the L2 condition requiring that a particle never reside at infinite distance from an observer, we need to also constrain the states such that quantum particles can never be observed at zero distance from an observer. In the way quantum theory is formulated right now, you are allowed to observe a particle at your own location. This is one more point that needs to be subtracted, as is the point at infinity. Furthermore, since two points are a zero sphere, we might gain a lot of powerful symmetry tools which we don't have when we only subtract a single point at infinity.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Aug 2020 19:48:16 No.12044063 Report

Quoted By: >>12044076 >>12044487

>>12044045
I might have to read the book in the references of that paper...

El Arcón

El Arcón Mon 24 Aug 2020 19:52:15 No.12044076 Report

Quoted By: >>12044087

>>12044063
That's my go-to for non-relativistic quantum lookups

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Aug 2020 19:54:48 No.12044087 Report

Quoted By: >>12044215

>>12044076
Please tell me, if I work through the whole textbook will I finally be able to understand what the fuck is going on in the delayed choice quantum eraser experiment?

El Arcón

El Arcón Mon 24 Aug 2020 20:37:40 No.12044215 Report

Quoted By:

>>12044087
Probably not. I could get it worked out if I had some resources though, like an optical table and a dozen post docs.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Mon 24 Aug 2020 20:38:36 No.12044222 Report

Quoted By:

>>12043937
Writing anyother way I'll remain unsatisfied it seems, bearing the smite that may ensue, i will attempt to simplify

That double slit experiment. Think of it like those plinko games in pic related. Those balls, or photons of light, or whatever you feel like imagining them as, seem not to care as they fall down. But what if I said, they are dancing, and, depending on the beat, will prefer to go right or left?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Aug 2020 21:40:58 No.12044487 Report

Quoted By:

>>12044063
Don't read anything of Tooker's itself, though: he is a crank.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 24 Aug 2020 21:59:29 No.12044557 Report

Quoted By: >>12045277

>>12044045
>>12044062
>wall-of-text schizo
errytime

El Arcón

El Arcón Tue 25 Aug 2020 01:58:34 No.12045277 Report

Quoted By:

>>12044557
So you think in your head "every time" but then you decide, "Hmmm... instead of pushing the V-key, I will push the R-key twice. Yes, that's it! Eureka!" I see you make the decision "every time" you make your wall-of-text schizo post. Does pushing the R-key twice instead of using R and V once each do something special?

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