/sci/ - Science & Math » Thread #11979707

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Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 06:32:28 2020 No.11979707 View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>11979727 >>11979738 >>11979876 >>11981166 >>11981244 >>11981933 >>11982491 >>11983666 >>11985647

Is chaos theory actually a valid discipline or just a load of, if I may say so fashionable number crunching?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 06:33:53 No.11979708 Report

Quoted By: >>11979725 >>11981933

it depends on what work you decide to do with it but its mostly playing with mathematics

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 06:35:09 No.11979713 Report

Quoted By:

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 06:37:11 No.11979716 Report

Quoted By:

chaos does not have to be chaotic in fact it can sometimes appear orderly and systematic

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 06:41:08 No.11979725 Report

Quoted By: >>11979809 >>11982186

>>11979708
My question is you can predict that any system will fuck up eventually but if you can't say why or how what's the point?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 06:41:14 No.11979727 Report

Quoted By:

>>11979707

it seems to be just a collection of observations that some deterministic systems can behave unpredictably. But since these system are unpredictable, they are not really useful for anything.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 06:44:46 No.11979734 Report

Quoted By:

i would argue all systems are predictable but most that seem unpredictable have not been solved but the point is to solved the unsolved after all its still mathematics

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 06:45:53 No.11979737 Report

Quoted By:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xfi0NwoqX8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovJcsL7vyrk

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 06:46:08 No.11979738 Report

Quoted By:

>>11979707

although I guess generating random numbers on computers is one application

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 06:46:46 No.11979741 Report

Quoted By:

It’s simply about non linearity

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 06:47:35 No.11979744 Report

Quoted By:

Stochastic processes, PDE and numerical simulations are valid fields. Calling any of them or a mixture of them "chaos theory" however is a shitty pop sci meme.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 06:49:51 No.11979748 Report

Quoted By:

computers cannot genuinely produce random numbers no matters what no application or programming could do so based on its limited number sequencing it comes down to probability and statistics

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 06:53:10 No.11979753 Report

Quoted By: >>11979789

Can you elucidate on this concept of a computer never truly producing a random number?
Is it because it has a limit on how high it can go?
If I just say 84 is that truly random because i'm not a computer?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 06:56:28 No.11979763 Report

Quoted By: >>11979773 >>11981946

its not totally random because you do not know every number to infinity and the human brain also has a bias if you create a program chances are you unknowingly instill it with your bias

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 07:00:09 No.11979773 Report

Quoted By:

>>11979763
so how can you define true random? Rolling a die?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 07:03:15 No.11979777 Report

Quoted By: >>11979779

no there are to many variables that can be manipulated you to be truly random there has to be no input variable that can be manipulated this is why everything like rolling a die or flipping a coin is just chaotic

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 07:05:23 No.11979779 Report

Quoted By: >>11979795

>>11979777
Then you can never truly have a random number

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 07:07:44 No.11979785 Report

Quoted By:

not truly just today i found a link between the golden ratio an pi by using sacred geometry and basic arithmetic

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 07:10:17 No.11979789 Report

Quoted By: >>11979796

>>11979753
Computers generate random numbers based on an algorithm that spits out sequences of digits that are closer to true random than anything else we've determined. It usually seeds the input to that algorithm based on something like a timestamp that will changed based on unrelated things happening. At the end of the day, though, it's still just the output of a math equation, and if you knew the exact algorithm being run and the value used to seed it, you could predict the outputs with 100% accuracy.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 07:11:11 No.11979795 Report

Quoted By: >>11979798

>>11979779

it's generally believed that processes involving quantum mechanics are truly random

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 07:11:55 No.11979796 Report

Quoted By:

>>11979789 in other words its not random

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 07:13:33 No.11979798 Report

Quoted By: >>11979811 >>11980019

>>11979795
in a quantum state you have several more variables that you dont understand possibly interacting with a dimension with even more variables i dont think its random just pretty close

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 07:19:03 No.11979809 Report

Quoted By:

>>11979725
I guess you can determine which systems are less stable than others, and which are more liable to collapse sooner rather than later. Actuarial science.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 07:20:14 No.11979811 Report

Quoted By:

>>11979798

see Bell's theorem

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden-variable_theory#Bell's_theorem

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 07:21:35 No.11979815 Report

Quoted By: >>11979820 >>11987793

Chaos theory has a wide array of application, one example includes progress in turbulence, a famously complicated problem in fluid mechanics, it currently employs asymptotic methods for any semblance of understanding, but this leaves us with limited use due to the regime restriction asymptotics present.

Even if it didn't have any application it is important to remember that we should not set a requirement of application to judge the worth of work. Riemann comes to mind with his work on manifolds. With it, General relativity becomes a controllable and understandable theory. We can't know what something will be useful for so we should just be happy that we are advancing knowledge.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 07:24:30 No.11979820 Report

Quoted By:

>>11979815
Riemann also came to my mind and as with bells theorem i think its that in a quantum state time and space may have wavering functionalities themselves so that might make a lot of sense

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 07:27:15 No.11979826 Report

Quoted By: >>11979867

would information entropy play a large role in chaos theory

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 07:58:31 No.11979867 Report

Quoted By:

>>11979826
Yes

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 08:02:29 No.11979876 Report

Quoted By:

>>11979707
It's metaphysics for boomers

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 09:17:30 No.11980007 Report

Quoted By:

Quantum 'chaos' is a neat field despite having zero applications so far

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 09:26:43 No.11980019 Report

Quoted By:

>>11979798
>i dont think its random just pretty close
If anyone finds any deviation from pure random, they will win a Nobel prize. It's been hunted after for almost a century, without even a hint of non-randomness.
https://youtu.be/lZ3bPUKo5zc?t=24m

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 16:55:19 No.11980948 Report

Quoted By:

Random is random but what u think is random isn’t what random is

Shuffle a deck a few times and you’re right back where I started wormhole conformed

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 18:31:22 No.11981166 Report

Quoted By:

>>11979707
it makes pretty pictures therefore it's a valid discipline

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 18:35:20 No.11981178 Report

Quoted By:

I came here to destroy your thread, OP

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 18:52:17 No.11981244 Report

Quoted By: >>11981917 >>11981941

>>11979707
There would be no chaos if we knew all the variables, but we don't know all the variables or even how to define all of them, so some things seem chaotic

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 22:25:58 No.11981917 Report

Quoted By: >>11984942

>>11981244
>t. doesn't understand chaos

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 22:31:20 No.11981933 Report

Quoted By:

>>11979707
Chaos Theory is just the study of chaotic behavior arising out of ordered systems/patterns. It's a really cool but relatively useless field of study.
>>11979708
This

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 22:32:16 No.11981938 Report

Quoted By:

yes. look up
Reductionism and Variability in Data: A Meta-Analysis by Robert Sapolsky & Steven Balt

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 22:33:36 No.11981941 Report

Quoted By:

>>11981244
Fuck off, Newton. Your clockwork universe is a lie.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 22:35:59 No.11981946 Report

Quoted By: >>11988545

>>11979763
>human brain also has a bias if you create a program chances are you unknowingly instill it with your bias
Retard alert.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 06 Aug 2020 23:48:46 No.11982186 Report

Quoted By:

>>11979725
But you can.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 07 Aug 2020 02:30:45 No.11982491 Report

Quoted By:

>>11979707
It's a subbranch of nonlinear systems, which is pretty important.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 07 Aug 2020 04:09:18 No.11982649 Report

Quoted By: >>11983976 >>11987793

Chaos theory is used to model diseases such as cancer

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 07 Aug 2020 04:27:41 No.11982695 Report

Quoted By: >>11982737 >>11989058

Someone explain how you could use math to explain why Dr.Grant suddenly jumped out of a moving vehicle

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 07 Aug 2020 04:57:09 No.11982737 Report

Quoted By:

>>11982695
1 man trying to sit peacefully + 1 guy who can't shutup = 1 man trying to gtfo

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 07 Aug 2020 09:53:50 No.11983274 Report

Quoted By:

Off-topic but I liked Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory, great game

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 07 Aug 2020 14:01:45 No.11983666 Report

Quoted By:

>>11979707
>fashionable number crunching
Isn't that what most math is reduced to?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 07 Aug 2020 16:25:32 No.11983976 Report

Quoted By: >>11984055

>>11982649
Do you have more information on that subject?
I'd like to learn more.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 07 Aug 2020 16:49:06 No.11984055 Report

Quoted By: >>11984649

>>11983976
https://www.worldscientific.com/doi/abs/10.1142/S0218127410025417

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1891444/

https://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/19/12/681

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00673722

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 07 Aug 2020 19:46:01 No.11984649 Report

Quoted By:

>>11984055
That's perfect.
Thanks!

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 07 Aug 2020 21:24:13 No.11984942 Report

Quoted By: >>11984952 >>11985194

>>11981917
>t. doesn't believe in it
Fixed. I'm a determinist. I'm saying you believe in chaos because you haven't controlled all the variables.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 07 Aug 2020 21:27:20 No.11984952 Report

Quoted By:

>>11984942
>I'm a determinist
It's called deterministic chaos for a reason.
You still can't keep the boundary conditions fixed with 100% accuracy.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 07 Aug 2020 22:52:28 No.11985194 Report

Quoted By:

>>11984942
You dont know what chaos is. A chaotic system is determined. The first example anyone will give you is a double pendulum system. It's in principle easy to describe the system but changing the initial conditions widely changes the trajectories of the pendulums, the defining feature of a chaotic system. You should actually go read a mathematical definition somewhere.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 08 Aug 2020 02:21:29 No.11985647 Report

Quoted By:

>>11979707

I was thinking this the other day. The usual parking space example. You drive in reverse. Turn the tire left and right or whatever way is necessary. Without damaging your car. Imagine your car 5ft wide and 5.5 feet of space. That’s like .909. So as you move back a forward numbers crunch from .909. How about when you open your door you get 6 inches of space so then you must somehow leave it on angle. Chaos doesn’t exist without catastrophe in-out-left-right. Catastrophe being scratching your car. Chaos is just cumulative acts within a time frame. That correspond with that scenario.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 08 Aug 2020 18:29:36 No.11987249 Report

Quoted By: >>11987793 >>11987934 >>11989445

So what are some practical uses of chaos theory?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 08 Aug 2020 20:50:50 No.11987793 Report

Quoted By: >>11987934

>>11987249

>>11979815 and >>11982649 aside, an easy answer is weather prediction. If I remember the story right, the butterfly effect was coined when a guy was looking into how to better predict the weather.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 08 Aug 2020 21:42:29 No.11987934 Report

Quoted By: >>11988524

>>11987793
>If I remember the story right

Sigh. You're referring to Lorenz, the fucking founder of chaos theory.

>>11987249

Chaos is a fucking phenomenon, and one which can play a role in practically all modelling of dynamical systems. You're question makes no sense. Analysis of dynamical systems i.e. generating numerical approximations, sensitivity analyses, bifurcation analyses...the list goes on...- these are so fundamental to applied maths that you may as well ask is there a point to ever quantifying anything.

It's brainlets like you two that make me wish everything was still taught in Latin.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 08 Aug 2020 23:57:12 No.11988524 Report

Quoted By:

>>11987934
Nice, nice. Really going to educate them and make them want to learn more. Great job.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Aug 2020 00:03:24 No.11988545 Report

Quoted By:

>>11981946
What are you talking about? If you ask for a random number or have someone program a random number generator they'll most likely produce or have the computer produce natural numbers. How is that not a gigantic bias?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Aug 2020 03:05:15 No.11989058 Report

Quoted By:

>>11982695
He saw a helpess child to disembowel with his velociraptor claw

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 09 Aug 2020 06:47:18 No.11989445 Report

Quoted By:

>>11987249
Non linear equations?
Strange attractors?
No?
Anon, I refuse to believe you're not familiar with the concept of attraction.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 09 Aug 2020 09:11:33 No.11989661 Report

Quoted By:

I've been reading Chaos by James Gleick and I have to say that it's one of the greatest books I've read in my life.
It's concise, full of examples and really gives you a good overview of the discovery and development of chaos theory.
I highly recommend it.

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