/sci/ - Science & Math » Thread #11917412

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Anonymous Mon 20 Jul 00:29:06 2020 No.11917412 View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>11917559 >>11919154 >>11920258 >>11920377 >>11921537 >>11923176 >>11924442 >>11924611

Would it be possible to detect markers of intelligent (industralised) life on earth if it occurred millions of years ago? Are scientists actually sure humans are the first civilisation here? Doesn't the geologic record only stretch like millions of years?
Also will be a relevant question considering most evidence of ET will probably be ruins and not current civilisations.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 20 Jul 2020 01:13:15 No.11917514 Report

Quoted By: >>11917610

>geologic record only stretch like millions of years
The oldest known fossil is 2.74 billion years old.
It's reasonable to think that if industrialized life arose some time before, some of their junk would be preserved and easier for us to find than any fossils.

You could speculate that maybe complex and intelligent life arose even earlier than that, like say 4 billion years ago, but that starts to push up against limits like the total age of the earth and how long it's been inhabitable, and raises questions of what sort of cataclysm could completely wipe out all life to the point that it has to start all over again

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 20 Jul 2020 01:33:32 No.11917559 Report

Quoted By:

>>11917412
There's a good book for this subject called "the world without us" that explores what would happen if humans all suddenly disappeared from a short to a long time scale that might answer some of your questions here.

As for ancient ancient, it really depends on what tech they had and how they advanced. Victorian era dinosaurs would be pretty easy I would think. But Cambrian would be much harder.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 20 Jul 2020 01:58:34 No.11917610 Report

Quoted By:

>>11917514
Yeah but fossils are notoriously sparse, there is no guarantee it would include evidence of the civilisation.
When I said geologic record I meant to say the surface of the earth is only that old, to find actually old shit they need drilling and so forth very little of which has been done.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 20 Jul 2020 15:36:08 No.11919154 Report

Quoted By:

>>11917412
I think about this a lot too. What if there’s actually evidence on the moon of older civilizations, like some weird alien landing craft that’s been there for millions of years?

Anonymous

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Anonymous Mon 20 Jul 2020 21:05:26 No.11920258 Report

Quoted By: >>11920311 >>11921397

>>11917412
after millions of years only a thin layer with an unusual high amount of rare earth metals like iridium would be there and lot's of chicken bones, some remains of moon missions could survive if no asteroid hits landing spots

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 20 Jul 2020 21:19:37 No.11920311 Report

Quoted By:

>>11920258
Iridium is not a rare earth.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 20 Jul 2020 21:29:14 No.11920377 Report

Quoted By: >>11920674 >>11921397

>>11917412
No. There are fossils from the time of the trilobites.
We should be able to discover alien archeological ruins from that time as well, or failing that at least fossils with suspicious brain to body mass ratios. None of those have been found.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 20 Jul 2020 22:18:17 No.11920604 Report

Quoted By: >>11920815

What about Mars tho? If life existed on Mars around the same time dinosaurs existed here, would we know by now?
What if the Martian civilisation saw dinosaurs as a developing threat and hurled the asteroid to wipe them out, only something went wrong and they wiped themselves out too..

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 20 Jul 2020 22:37:31 No.11920674 Report

Quoted By:

>>11920377
Fossils are extremely rare and there are tons of gaps in the record.

It’s possible we’re the most sophisticated species ever on earth, but it’s also very possible we’re not the first civilization. Imagine if the Vikings were wiped out by some plague, and millions of years passed. No one would ever know they existed

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 20 Jul 2020 23:49:56 No.11920815 Report

Quoted By:

>>11920604
>If life existed on Mars around the same time dinosaurs existed here, would we know by now
No we wouldnt. Everything will be buried under meters of dust by regular planetwide dust storms

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 21 Jul 2020 03:50:19 No.11921397 Report

Quoted By: >>11921414

>>11920377
fossils miss a significant/majority amount of species to have ever existed
most species that have existed on earth humans do not know of/probably will never know of
there isn't some magical fossil record that just catalogues all species throughout time, its literally just random snapshots of what we were lucky enough to find. Ruins is even more ridiculous, since the oldest point of the surface of the earth is only a few million years old, and even the deep sea floor is renewed every couple hundred million years as new crust is generated. for context, the earth itself is something like 5 billion years old and life only a bit younger. This guy:
>>11920258
is the closest to the truth, once the timescales are that large, the only hard (and reliable) evidence would be suspect ratios of rare earth metals, and also stuff like measurements of carbon in the atmosphere (a civilisation would likely produce a lot of co2 like us)

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 21 Jul 2020 03:57:44 No.11921414 Report

Quoted By: >>11921493

>>11921397
>its literally just random snapshots of what we were lucky enough to find.
Those "snapshots" as you call them tell a story and show a progression in increasing encephalization quotients over millions of years. You won't find more intelligent life in the Jurassic aside from small mammals, which were orders of magnitude dumber than modern mammals.

And you sure as hell won't expect to suddenly a find a sapient smart Troodontid in the transition between dinosaurs and birds because we have charted the evolution of their brains.

Macroevolutions are driven by microevolutions. This isn't pokemon. Intelligence evolved over millions of years.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 21 Jul 2020 04:39:30 No.11921493 Report

Quoted By: >>11921519

>>11921414
What about entire branches of species that went extinct? You assume intelligence is on a single track, which it isn't. Dolphins and Humans have a nearly 100 million years separation in evolutionary history, and we both independently evolved intelligence.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 21 Jul 2020 04:54:45 No.11921519 Report

Quoted By: >>11922941 >>11922969

>>11921493
The rise of intelligence is directly related to greater oxygen levels following the KT extinction event, and was built upon previous rises in intelligence over millions of years.

Simply put, you are more likely to find smart animals now than at any previous point in natural history. If there was a previous branch of animals with extraordinary, Human-like intelligence, we should be able to find some fossils with increased encephalization quotients more similar to those of modern animals, if not from the superintelligent species itself then from some of its ancestors.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 21 Jul 2020 05:02:38 No.11921537 Report

Quoted By:

>>11917412
probably dramatic drops in biodiversity of particular ecosystems observed via fossil record because of the inevitable spread of invasives
>cactaceae showing up outside of the americas is actually because ayys brought it there not birds

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 21 Jul 2020 16:08:27 No.11922941 Report

Quoted By: >>11923050 >>11923094

>>11921519
Except less than 0.1% of all species ever to have existed have not been fossilized
it would be unlikely to find even the ancestors

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 21 Jul 2020 16:15:07 No.11922969 Report

Quoted By: >>11923050 >>11923094

>>11921519
There was more oxygen in the world previously. There’s less now which is why most animals are small compared to the dinosaurs. You’re saying we have basically a record of all life on earth which is completely false. It’s entirely possible there have been intelligent creatures that existed millions of years ago, were not caught in a land slide, were not preserved, and didn’t leave a noticeable footprint because they were sufficiently advanced.

Saying humans were the first is silly

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 21 Jul 2020 16:38:13 No.11923050 Report

Quoted By: >>11923090 >>11923093

>>11922941
A misleading statistic considering most of those were before the time of the dinosaurs, that is, even less complex and intelligent

>>11922969
>There was more oxygen in the world previously.
Yes, but the rise in intelligence accompanied the recovery of oxygen levels following KT. It was a specific happening on a specific period of time.

>You’re saying we have basically a record of all life on earth which is completely false.
Never said that. What we have are the general trends and enough understanding of evolution to fill in the gaps.

>It’s entirely possible there have been intelligent creatures that existed millions of years ago, were not caught in a land slide, were not preserved, and didn’t leave a noticeable footprint because they were sufficiently advanced.
The record is pretty solid. The smartest dinosaur was barely smarter than a rabbit in intelligence. At what point do you expect the super intelligent species to have lived? Before the dinosaurs life was even simpler and stupider. Evolution of intelligence took millions of years to get to where we are now. There's just not enough space (time) to fit a whole line of super intelligent dinosaurs in the gaps.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 21 Jul 2020 16:52:30 No.11923090 Report

Quoted By: >>11923102

>>11923050
If humans, primates, and orcas went extinct 5000 years ago before we built any noticeable structures, and left no fossil record, you’re saying there would be evidence of intelligent life? What would even be the smartest animal, a dog maybe?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 21 Jul 2020 16:52:59 No.11923093 Report

Quoted By: >>11923102

>>11923050
Velociraptors look like they walked on feet like us, and had opposable thumbs like monkeys. Maybe intelligence evolves relatively quickly once the species has the use for it.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 21 Jul 2020 16:53:12 No.11923094 Report

Quoted By: >>11923100 >>11923129

>>11922941
A misleading statistic considering most of those were before the time of the dinosaurs, that is, even less complex and intelligent

>>11922969
>There was more oxygen in the world previously.
Yes, but the rise in intelligence accompanied the recovery of oxygen levels following KT. It was a specific happening on a specific period of time.

>You’re saying we have basically a record of all life on earth which is completely false.
Never said that. What we have are the general trends and enough understanding of evolution to fill in the gaps.

>It’s entirely possible there have been intelligent creatures that existed millions of years ago, were not caught in a land slide, were not preserved, and didn’t leave a noticeable footprint because they were sufficiently advanced.
The record is pretty solid. The smartest dinosaurs were Troodontids and they were far below apes or bids in intelligence. They were also snuffed out pretty quickly. At what point do you expect the super intelligent species to have lived? Before the dinosaurs life was even simpler and stupider. Evolution of intelligence took millions of years to get to where we are now. There's just not enough space (time) to fit a whole line of super intelligent dinosaurs in the gaps.

Edit: Better chart and corrections

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 21 Jul 2020 16:54:15 No.11923100 Report

Quoted By:

>>11923094

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 21 Jul 2020 16:55:17 No.11923102 Report

Quoted By: >>11923109

>>11923090
There would be fossils 5000 years ago. The record is much better.

>>11923093
Velociraptors were fucking stupid. Troodontids you could have a stronger case.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 21 Jul 2020 16:57:46 No.11923109 Report

Quoted By: >>11923125

>>11923102
>There would be fossils 5000 years ago
Again, fossils are exceedingly rare and capture only a minute fraction of the animals that actually lived

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 21 Jul 2020 17:03:53 No.11923125 Report

Quoted By: >>11923134 >>11923178

>>11923109
You don't seem to understand that an animal with a level of intelligence on par with Humans would mean a whole line of ancestor species with high intelligence.

Humans didn't evolve intelligent out of the blue.
To get there we were super smart Homo Erectus.
And before that we were smart Homo Habilis
And before that we were the witty Australopithecus.
And before that we were pretty intelligent apes.

So that's roughly 11 million years of evolution, 5 million if you want to count the split from Chimpanzees as a starting point.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 21 Jul 2020 17:04:55 No.11923129 Report

Quoted By: >>11923141

>>11923094
why is it necessary for the intelligent life to exist during the time of dinosaurs?
the only reason species like trilobytes were even preserved is because of their hard exo skeleton. something with different body composition wouldnt have been fossilised at all.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 21 Jul 2020 17:06:45 No.11923134 Report

Quoted By: >>11923147

>>11923125
11 million years is nothing
it is possible in 2 billion years humans would not register in the geologic record without extensive research

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 21 Jul 2020 17:08:22 No.11923141 Report

Quoted By:

>>11923129
>why is it necessary for the intelligent life to exist during the time of dinosaurs?
Because life before that point was even less complex and less intelligent, there is not a single fossil that suggests otherwise.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 21 Jul 2020 17:10:20 No.11923147 Report

Quoted By: >>11923154

>>11923134
Just ONE fossil from our time surviving would be indicative of higher intelligence. A dog. Or a cat. Or a chimpanzee. Or a dolphin. Any of those would point out that mammals were reaching high levels of intelligence.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 21 Jul 2020 17:12:28 No.11923154 Report

Quoted By:

>>11923147
Human activity would also be recorded in other ways, such as Vostok Ice Cores or tree rings.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 21 Jul 2020 17:19:07 No.11923176 Report

Quoted By:

>>11917412
if that happened, we would have already found their Github archive in the permafrost

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 21 Jul 2020 17:19:35 No.11923178 Report

Quoted By: >>11923211

>>11923125
>Humans didn't evolve intelligent out of the blue.
They kind of did. It only took a few millions of years at most.
As I said, it might be the means to use it - evolving a bigger brain might not be particularly useful unless you have hands and good eyesight at the very least.
All big brained animals evolved intelligence for some reason. There is just not much advantage of being a super intelligent grass digestor, you need to have some use for the extra intelligence, but there might not be any particular obstacle for evolving it once there is some use for it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 21 Jul 2020 17:28:27 No.11923211 Report

Quoted By: >>11923273

>>11923178
As self-evident as it is, it may need to be pointed out. Humans wouldn't be here without apes, which wouldn't be here without monkeys, which wouldn't be here without protosimians. So it was a process of hundreds of millions of years, an this process itself was built upon billions of year of previous evolution.

Before the dinosaurs there is not a single fossil to suggest similar levels of intelligence to a protosimian (like a lemur), and during the time of the dinosaurs only Troodontids got close before they were snuffed out.

This doubting of what is a solid historical fossil record with no evidence presented to the contrary is starting to get close to creationism.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 21 Jul 2020 17:43:59 No.11923273 Report

Quoted By: >>11923296 >>11923537

>>11923211
I don't think you get my point: why should evolving a big brain be particularly difficult, completely unlike evolving big antlers or anything else? The problem is it means hardly an advantage unless your body has the ability to grab and manipulate objects (even apes rather suck at those).

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 21 Jul 2020 17:51:36 No.11923296 Report

Quoted By: >>11923524

>>11923273
It's not that difficult, but mammals were building upon a solid base, placental mammals from the cretaceous were already getting somewhat smart. Birds too, built upon the base left by the smartest dinosaurs.

Octopi are the only animals that evolved complex brains from a line that was totally independent from that of reptiles-mammals / reptile-dinosaurs-avians.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 21 Jul 2020 19:06:58 No.11923524 Report

Quoted By: >>11924395

>>11923296
It seems you completely sidestepped my point.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 21 Jul 2020 19:10:03 No.11923537 Report

Quoted By:

>>11923273
Jaw muscles. When crushing things with your teeth becomes less important than thinking then you get smart animals. Like a break-even point.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 21 Jul 2020 23:53:07 No.11924395 Report

Quoted By: >>11925180 >>11925183

>>11923524
Your point and my point are not in contradiction.
I don't believe intelligence is particularly rare or that difficult to evolve. Complex brains may be trickier but even those appeared separately at least more than once (ie. cephalopods).

So it's not that intelligence is that rare or unique, it's just that the fossil record doesn't support this reddit theory. Like, at all. Not even the slightest hint of it. A sapient species, even a stone age one, would leave large traces of its evolution.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 22 Jul 2020 00:07:42 No.11924442 Report

Quoted By:

>>11917412
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1704.07263.pdf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lh0skjMpJHo

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 22 Jul 2020 01:11:58 No.11924611 Report

Quoted By:

>>11917412
Millions? Some things could conceivable sty that long on the surface of the moon or maybe so,e Lagrange points. I’d look up

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 22 Jul 2020 05:31:04 No.11925180 Report

Quoted By:

>>11924395
But my point was that it isn't much different from evolving bigger ears or antlers. Once you have any brain at all, evolving a bigger one is only the matter of need. When a bigger brain is useful, you evolve it, the primary obatacle is that it rarely is. It takes a specific body or niche. Cetaceans need it to deal with having lungs in the sea abd echolocating, elephants to fully use their trunks, even a cephalopod evolved one in order to eput into good use its tentacles and mimicry.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 22 Jul 2020 05:33:14 No.11925183 Report

Quoted By:

>>11924395
But my point was that it isn't much different from evolving bigger ears or antlers. Once you have any brain at all, evolving a bigger one is only the matter of need. When a bigger brain is useful, you evolve it, the primary obatacle is that it rarely is. It takes a specific body or niche. Cetaceans need it to deal with having lungs in the sea and echolocating, elephants to fully use their trunks, even a cephalopod evolved one in order to put into good use its tentacles and mimicry.

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