/sci/ - Science & Math » Thread #11910382

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Has a species ever evolved to be dumber?

Anonymous Fri 17 Jul 16:35:47 2020 No.11910382 View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>11910386 >>11910399 >>11911785 >>11912295

In the book Galápagos humans stranded on an island evolve smaller brains over millions of years, since the environment selected for better swimmers for example over intelligence. Has that ever happened to a species?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Jul 2020 16:37:10 No.11910386 Report

Quoted By: >>11910395 >>11910400 >>11911268 >>11912300 >>11912382 >>11912438

>>11910382
It's happening to Europe now, and has been for the past hundred or so years. European intelligence was selected for in the past, whereas now it's selected against.
It's generally selected for in countries like China now, so Asian IQ is increasing whereas European IQ is decreasing.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Jul 2020 16:40:18 No.11910395 Report

Quoted By:

>>11910386
I am asking about non-human species.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Jul 2020 16:42:44 No.11910399 Report

Quoted By: >>11910409

>>11910382
Wolves to dogs.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Jul 2020 16:43:06 No.11910400 Report

Quoted By: >>11911793

>>11910386
hold on a second, you sound like you imply a higher population growth rate = higher IQ and lower population growth = lower IQ, this isnt true

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Jul 2020 16:46:21 No.11910409 Report

Quoted By:

>>11910399
Any example where it happened naturally?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Jul 2020 22:05:20 No.11911268 Report

Quoted By: >>11912291

>>11910386
>human evolution can be measured over a few centuries

You're retarded.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 17 Jul 2020 23:37:34 No.11911497 Report

Quoted By:

IQ in the United States peaked with those born in 1972.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 18 Jul 2020 01:28:52 No.11911727 Report

Quoted By:

taiga a cute

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 18 Jul 2020 02:03:09 No.11911785 Report

Quoted By:

>>11910382
You're a weeb, so yeah.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 18 Jul 2020 02:05:49 No.11911793 Report

Quoted By:

>>11910400
That's not what he's implying, his claim that intelligence is still increasing in east asia is also wrong and nonsensical. The overall argument is correct: intelligence is falling in the West and has been since the early 20th century.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 18 Jul 2020 07:25:12 No.11912291 Report

Quoted By:

>>11911268
human evolution can occur in as quickly as a century or two.

extreme change takes millions of years.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 18 Jul 2020 07:29:03 No.11912295 Report

Quoted By: >>11912378

>>11910382
Intelligence on non human species is pretty dumb thing to look for with a question like this since they don't exactly leave evidence and who is to say that a particular bird is now dumber than it was ten thousand years ago. At best you might find some skull shrinking or something but even that isn't exactly credible evidence.

A better argument is that if it can happen it's a pretty safe bet it has happened and it's obviously possible theoretically (such as environment favoring better swimmers and lower intelligence for what ever reason) and objectively (many human populations are experiencing as we speak)

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 18 Jul 2020 07:29:57 No.11912300 Report

Quoted By: >>11912303 >>11912364 >>11912380

>>11910386
>It's happening to Europe now
Disputed, now it's stagnant, not decreasing

>has been for the past hundred or so years.
This is literally wrong. It's been increasing until recently.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 18 Jul 2020 07:32:07 No.11912303 Report

Quoted By: >>11912307

>>11912300
Even if the test don't show it it's objectively happening since it's a fact that who ever humans consider smart are reproducing less than who ever humans consider dumb. If that is actual intelligence who can say but it's the contemporary meaning of the word.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 18 Jul 2020 07:33:36 No.11912307 Report

Quoted By: >>11912311 >>11912364 >>11912380

>>11912303
>even if there is no evidence I will proclaim something to be true because it makes sense to me
That's not science.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 18 Jul 2020 07:35:50 No.11912311 Report

Quoted By: >>11912317 >>11912319

>>11912307
I just provided evidence, birth rates are an objective thing and they correlate negatively with things that are considered intelligent like education or income. Just because people get better at IQ tests doesn't mean that ability is actually going up, there is simply more training to compensate.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 18 Jul 2020 07:40:54 No.11912317 Report

Quoted By:

>>11912311
>I just provided evidence
You didn't?

>birth rates are an objective thing and they correlate negatively with things that are considered intelligent like education or income.
Sure, but there are positive factors as play such as economic growth, better nutrition, better access to education which explains the rise in IQ scores over the past century.

>Just because people get better at IQ tests doesn't mean that ability is actually going up
The chart I posted shows increases in general ability (g) not just IQ. How do you know the rise in IQ is due to better test-taking abilities rather than intelligence?
, there is simply more training to compensate.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 18 Jul 2020 07:41:56 No.11912319 Report

Quoted By: >>11912333

>>11912311
>I just provided evidence
You didn't?

>birth rates are an objective thing and they correlate negatively with things that are considered intelligent like education or income.
Sure, but there are positive factors as play such as economic growth, better nutrition, better access to education which explains the rise in IQ scores over the past century.

>Just because people get better at IQ tests doesn't mean that ability is actually going up
The chart I posted shows increases in general ability (g-loaded) not just IQ.

How do you know the rise in IQ is due to better test-taking abilities rather than from a rise in intelligence?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 18 Jul 2020 07:47:37 No.11912333 Report

Quoted By: >>11912355 >>11912357

>>11912319
economic growth and better nutrition doesn't make the species more intelligent seeing as they don't change the genetic makeup. They do raise all sorts of test scores though which as you might notice is my point.

>How do you know the rise in IQ is due to better test-taking abilities rather than from a rise in intelligence?
Because the people that score lowest reproduce the most, in evolution that means those traits are spreading. Meanwhile the things that can hide those traits artificially from manifesting (like economic growth) are happening.

I can't even believe you are trying to argue this, is this a joke or a troll or what?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 18 Jul 2020 07:57:00 No.11912355 Report

Quoted By:

>>11912333
>economic growth and better nutrition doesn't make the species more intelligent seeing as they don't change the genetic makeup.
They affect those factors of intelligence that aren't dependent on genetics, so yeah, they make the species "more intelligent", a more proper way of putting it is that they allow the potential intelligence to be expressed.

>They do raise all sorts of test scores though which as you might notice is my point.
Your point was that intelligence was decreasing, there is no evidence this isn't the case.

>Because the people that score lowest reproduce the most, in evolution that means those traits are spreading.
It makes sense on a superficial level, yeah, but it's a supposition, which you would need to prove. Poor people have always reproduced at faster rates than rich people. They have also died at faster rates.

As living standards improve, people have less kids. (This happens regardless of intelligence)

>I can't even believe you are trying to argue this, is this a joke or a troll or what?
I guess demanding proof of your claims is too much to ask of this board. It's my fault for actually trying to have a scientific debate in this shithole. Carry on with your shitposting.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 18 Jul 2020 07:58:12 No.11912357 Report

Quoted By: >>11912360 >>11912364

>>11912333
>economic growth and better nutrition doesn't make the species more intelligent seeing as they don't change the genetic makeup.
They affect those factors of intelligence that aren't dependent on genetics, so yeah, they make the species "more intelligent", a more proper way of putting it is that they allow the potential intelligence to be expressed.

>They do raise all sorts of test scores though which as you might notice is my point.
Your point was that intelligence was decreasing, there is no evidence this is the case.

>Because the people that score lowest reproduce the most, in evolution that means those traits are spreading.
It makes sense on a superficial level, yeah, but it's a supposition, which you would need to prove. Poor people have always reproduced at faster rates than rich people. They have also died at faster rates. So in a way it balances itself out.

As living standards improve, people have less kids. (This happens regardless of intelligence)

>I can't even believe you are trying to argue this, is this a joke or a troll or what?
I guess demanding proof of your claims is too much to ask of this board. It's my fault for actually trying to have a scientific debate in this shithole. Carry on with your shitposting.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 18 Jul 2020 07:59:38 No.11912360 Report

Quoted By: >>11912363

>>11912357
There is evidence that this is the case, you are just incapable of using basic research skills to learn that this is indeed happening and has been documented for over a decade now.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 18 Jul 2020 08:01:13 No.11912363 Report

Quoted By: >>11912376

>>11912360
Ok so you are a shitposter.
Got it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 18 Jul 2020 08:02:31 No.11912364 Report

Quoted By: >>11912380

>>11912357
This has to be the dumbest post I have read in a while.

>I guess demanding proof of your claims
Well start by proving that any of this graph has anything to do with intelligence of a species
>>11912300

Then prove this statement
>>11912307

And these
>Sure, but there are positive factors as play such as economic growth, better nutrition, better access to education which explains the rise in IQ scores over the past century.
>The chart I posted shows increases in general ability (g-loaded) not just IQ.
>How do you know the rise in IQ is due to better test-taking abilities rather than from a rise in intelligence?

And throw a bit of proof for these ones too

>They affect those factors of intelligence that aren't dependent on genetics
> so yeah, they make the species "more intelligent
>a more proper way of putting it is that they allow the potential intelligence to be expressed.
>Your point was that intelligence was decreasing
>there is no evidence this is the case.
>It makes sense on a superficial level
>yeah, but it's a supposition
>which you would need to prove.
> Poor people have always reproduced at faster rates than rich people.
>They have also died at faster rates
>So in a way it balances itself out.
>As living standards improve, people have less kids.
>(This happens regardless of intelligence)

Start proofing you mega nigger

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 18 Jul 2020 08:08:07 No.11912376 Report

Quoted By: >>11912387

>>11912363
If you don't know that this has been understood since the 1800's and is literally discussed in detail by RA Fisher in his book that established Population Genetics that's not my fault. It is a mathematically necessary consequence of the fact that the lower and middle classes have higher fertility than the cognitively superior upper classes. Humans over breed to supplement high infant mortality rates and lower than replacement fecundity expected of the typical two offspring necessary to maintain population equilibrium. The strategy is seen in insects, corals, reptiles, any fast breeding short lifespan animal will have very high fecundity. Longer lived organisms with greater chance of living to reproductive age tend to have smaller broods. Humans have transitioned to a low mortality, hyper caloric mode of civilization where the wealthiest people have the lowest probability of losing their children before they can breed. This and the nature of the way people socialize and earn their keep in the upper eschelons of western society discourages the most capable parents from breeding at replacement levels. Hence, you have a large dwindling reproductive trend where only the dumbest and most impoverished have any impetus to continue the necessary reproductive rate for population growth. The average iq goes down, the civilization has either an inverted population pyramid like in Japan or simply is replaced by dumber less civilized people like in America and the UK. You can deduce all of this with a highschooler's understanding of calculus, brainlet faggot.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 18 Jul 2020 08:08:54 No.11912378 Report

Quoted By: >>11912396

>>11912295
I don't care if you think it's dumb, this is what the thread is about. We are able to tell the intelligence of our ancestors that lived millions of years ago by their skulls.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 18 Jul 2020 08:09:01 No.11912380 Report

Quoted By: >>11912390

>>11912364
>This has to be the dumbest post I have read in a while.
Because it proved you wrong?

>Well start by proving that any of this graph has anything to do with intelligence of a species
>>11912300 (You)
Sure, it comes from this study:
http://www.iapsych.com/iqmr/fe/LinkedDocuments/Sundet2004.pdf
Which is an analysis of test scores from Norwegian army recruits

>Then prove this statement
>>11912307 (You)
I shouldn't need to prove how science works on a science board

And these
>Sure, but there are positive factors as play such as economic growth, better nutrition, better access to education which explains the rise in IQ scores over the past century.
Ok
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1570677X09000057?via%3Dihub

>The chart I posted shows increases in general ability (g-loaded) not just IQ.
It's on the first link.

>How do you know the rise in IQ is due to better test-taking abilities rather than from a rise in intelligence?
That was your claim, prove it please.

>And throw a bit of proof for these ones too
Sure

>They affect those factors of intelligence that aren't dependent on genetics
It's on the second study in this post

>As living standards improve, people have less kids.
>(This happens regardless of intelligence)
https://www.dandc.eu/en/article/birth-rates-go-down-standards-living-improve

That's three links proving most of my claims.
Now post your proof that intelligence is actually decreasing.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 18 Jul 2020 08:09:55 No.11912382 Report

Quoted By:

>>11910386
Nah, the lower average IQ in Europe comes from all the niggers we're accepting as refugees.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 18 Jul 2020 08:12:24 No.11912387 Report

Quoted By:

>>11912376
It makes sense, there are a lot of theories that make sense on a superficial level, but you need to prove them for them to become accepted, that's science. The "ether theory" made a lot of sense to physicists in the 1920s too, but it wasn't real.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 18 Jul 2020 08:12:53 No.11912390 Report

Quoted By: >>11912398

>>11912380
>Because it proved you wrong?
Because it's retarded

>Which is an analysis of test scores from Norwegian army recruits
Where's the proof of that?

>I shouldn't need to prove how science works on a science board
So you don't plan to prove your statements?

>That was your claim, prove it please.
It was your post, prove it

>It's on the second study in this post
Prove it

>That's three links proving most of my claims.
Prove it

Where is the rest of your proofs?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 18 Jul 2020 08:14:06 No.11912396 Report

Quoted By:

>>11912378
Yes well then the answer is yes. Just a dumb question I guess.
You got some decreases in skull size right in your own graph there.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 18 Jul 2020 08:14:57 No.11912398 Report

Quoted By: >>11912401

>>11912390
I posted three studies. Read them and come up with a proper rebuttal. And post the proof for your initial claim of "Human intelligence decreasing for the past 100 years" since you are at it, faggot.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 18 Jul 2020 08:18:01 No.11912401 Report

Quoted By: >>11912407

>>11912398
>I posted three studies.
And what does that prove? Prove those studies and prove they prove anything relevant to the discussion. No saying "read it" isn't a proof.

>Read them and come up with a proper rebuttal.
Already done but seeing as you didn't prove your statements I will let you just carry on with the shitposting since you clearly aren't interested in science.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 18 Jul 2020 08:23:00 No.11912407 Report

Quoted By: >>11912410

>>11912401
>And what does that prove? Prove those studies and prove they prove anything relevant to the discussion.
>Prove a proof
Are you retarded? Go to the links and read them if you are interested in a good faith discussion. Bring me your objections and I'll reply.

I am not going to waste my time quoting entire parts of the text for what it's most likely a shitposter.

>Already done
You read them all in two minutes?
Shitpost harder.

Still waiting for that proof of "Human intelligence decreasing in the past 100 years". Let me know when you find it, retard.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 18 Jul 2020 08:26:22 No.11912410 Report

Quoted By: >>11912415

>>11912407
>Bring me your objections and I'll reply.
You haven't proven your statements, that's against science so I will simply be content in waiting till proof is provided and your shitposting stops.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 18 Jul 2020 08:28:37 No.11912415 Report

Quoted By: >>11912416

>>11912410
Proof was provided, (3 links) you are just too lazy to read them.
You on the other hand haven't provided a single one to back up your claim that "intelligence has been decreasing for the past 100 years".

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 18 Jul 2020 08:30:00 No.11912416 Report

Quoted By:

>>11912415
Prove those links prove anything and prove the rest of the statements too, just shitposting isn't actually a proof mr. shitposter

>provided a single one to back up your claim
Prove I said that

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 18 Jul 2020 08:46:11 No.11912438 Report

Quoted By:

>>11910386
>It's generally selected for in countries like China now , so Asian IQ is increasing

Do you really believe it ?

Because I have 2 SERIOUS DOUBTS about the intelligence of the Chinese people -

-First of all, if the Chinese people are so intelligent, why do they have to cheat on the tests and they are not capable of TRUE INNOVATIVENESS and TRUE CREATIVITY?

-Secondly, if the Chinese are so intelligent, why do they let themselves be HUMILIATED in their own country by their own government and other Chinese people ?

China is basically modern hell on Earth:

>horrible polluted air in all big cities all the time

>overpopulated as fuck

>expensive to live in

>hyper-consumerist plastic culture

>ultra-competitive school environment

>hellish work hours

>slave work culture

>USA-tier healthcare system

>ugly as shit concrete-on-concrete streets

>no public parks

>no public benches

>incompetent police that rules blatant murders as "suicide"

>anti-social low-trust culture, you can literally collapse and die in the middle of big Chinese city and nobody would blink an eye or stop for the moment

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/college-applicants-cheat_b_1074544?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAALVDbapgaNxAhf-nDV06xTExZcHmvzVNTXN2mlDJoiHIE80gw1EnDqld4X6o3mIqAi2Icz0fI4aFC5-D5Aij_pY9nZMFSBwFx9HQbwMTxwXD6bc03SsuuXiJCz2n2TBMqbo3dztXABmYu7vo7MbiF8nkCvc11EX1OEJDHrRK2TKI

https://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opinion/article/1974986/why-do-chinese-students-think-its-ok-cheat

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 18 Jul 2020 16:01:11 No.11913127 Report

Quoted By:

yes

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