/sci/ - Science & Math » Thread #11804574

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Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 13:32:30 2020 No.11804574 View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>11804583 >>11804605 >>11804621 >>11804700 >>11804765 >>11806584 >>11807283 >>11808104 >>11808188 >>11809483 >>11810600 >>11811301 >>11811627 >>11811665 >>11812051

>Every statement is either True or False

Apparently this is incorrect, and quantum physics shows that you can have statements that are neither true nor false.

Can someone tell me quantum physics shows this?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 13:34:13 No.11804578 Report

Quoted By:

i dont know

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 13:36:04 No.11804583 Report

Quoted By:

>>11804574
Maybe

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 13:38:08 No.11804590 Report

Quoted By:

Probably

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 13:45:27 No.11804605 Report

Quoted By:

>>11804574
I can tell you

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 13:53:31 No.11804621 Report

Quoted By: >>11804631

>>11804574
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_theorems

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 13:58:37 No.11804631 Report

Quoted By: >>11804651

>>11804621
you don't understand it obviously if you think this is relevant.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 14:05:57 No.11804651 Report

Quoted By: >>11804658 >>11804675 >>11804683 >>11811929

>>11804631
In any consistent system, there will be statements which are undecidable, meaning there will always be a theorem (read: statement) for which you cannot decide whether it is true or false.

I assume we don't need to discuss the inconsistent systems.

From a philosophical and intuitionistic standpoint, given the incompleteness theorems, you cannot prove that every statement is either true or false, and thus cannot make the statement that every statement is true or false.

Unless you want to argue you can know things you cannot prove?
This is more a philosophical issue than it is anything else.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 14:07:41 No.11804658 Report

Quoted By: >>11804661

>>11804651
>In any consistent system, there will be statements which are undecidable, meaning there will always be a theorem (read: statement) for which you cannot decide whether it is true or false.
That's false.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 14:09:43 No.11804661 Report

Quoted By:

>>11804658
Nice argument.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 14:14:25 No.11804675 Report

Quoted By: >>11804681 >>11804696

>>11804651
dude i know godel's work inside out you're not telling me anything new. being able to prove whether a statement is true or false doesn't mean that the statement is neither true nor false. i can't prove that the sun exist (since it could be a dream) that doesn't mean that the proposition "the sun exists" is neither true nor false.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 14:15:28 No.11804681 Report

Quoted By: >>11804696

>>11804675
*being unable to prove
obviously this is what i meant. either way what does this have to do with quantum mechanics?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 14:17:40 No.11804683 Report

Quoted By: >>11804688 >>11804696

>>11804651
Any sufficiently powerful consistent system.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 14:20:29 No.11804688 Report

Quoted By:

>>11804683
There you go, at least someone gets it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 14:23:52 No.11804696 Report

Quoted By: >>11804819

>>11804675
>>11804681
That's exactly why this is a philosophical issue, and also why I used the term "intuitionistic".

How is quantum mechanics (some math people threw together based on physical observations--math that's not even 100% accurate about said physical observations) going to speak to the concept and consistency of the concept of logic itself?

The question itself doesn't make a lot of sense. There's more fundamental problems at play. Does pure math even exist in the physical world? If you cannot physically prove something, does it have meaning? You're hitting on philosophy. And if pure math does exist, and is separate from the physical world, then why does quantum physics speak to what statements can or cannot exist in pure math?

>>11804683
Thank you.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 14:24:32 No.11804700 Report

Quoted By: >>11804819

>>11804574
Godel stuff irrelevant here. It's a limit to our reasoning but not the one you are asking for. Link below is what you need. Quantum systems correspond to probability measures on this non boolean (not just true or false) lattice.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-quantlog/

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 14:58:10 No.11804765 Report

Quoted By:

>>11804574
You are stupid and your mom is fat
*your mom is fat* is neither true nor false depending on how you interpret it

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 15:22:46 No.11804819 Report

Quoted By: >>11805864

>>11804700
This is correct. This poster >>11804696 is asking why QM should have any effect on logic. The answer is that QM exposed the entire idea that something either is or is not (A or not A), by showing that the idea is based on the way humans interpret reality, and is not necessarily true. There is no actual reason why something can be and also not be at the same time (A and not A). This has nothing to do with whether mathematics is a construct or not, or other philosophical problems. This issue is partly cognitive, partly logical, but it originates in QM.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 20:32:02 No.11805864 Report

Quoted By: >>11806408

>>11804819
>in quantum physics something can be and not be

how???

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 23:43:38 No.11806408 Report

Quoted By:

>>11805864
you literally can't understand it unless you do the physics

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 17 Jun 2020 00:58:07 No.11806584 Report

Quoted By: >>11806587 >>11807626 >>11811320 >>11812265

>>11804574
Yes. Particles exist in an indeterminate state until an interaction. This is distinct from our lack of knowledge of whether the particle is spin up or spin down, and is a state in which the particle really is neither spin up nor spin down.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 17 Jun 2020 00:59:16 No.11806587 Report

Quoted By:

>>11806584
By the way everyone who couldn't explain this but has done physics at university needs to either study harder or ask for their money back for whatever Mickey Mouse degree you idiots got awarded. This is basic.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 17 Jun 2020 06:18:00 No.11807283 Report

Quoted By: >>11807861 >>11808151

>>11804574
>Every statement is either True or False
This statement is false.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 17 Jun 2020 09:12:30 No.11807626 Report

Quoted By:

>>11806584
okay but can you elaborate more on the empirical finding and how it relates to logical implication? just because we can't measure something, can we really say that the truth value of the statement is neither true nor false?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 17 Jun 2020 11:36:01 No.11807861 Report

Quoted By:

>>11807283
No it isn't

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 17 Jun 2020 13:34:10 No.11808104 Report

Quoted By: >>11808151

>>11804574
>every statement is either true or false
this is a law of classical logic (law of excluded middle). In classical logic a statement is exactly some sentence or expression that has a certain truth value (either true or false). If a sentence doesn't have a certain truth value (for example "This sentence is false") then it isn't regarded as a statement

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 17 Jun 2020 13:40:41 No.11808115 Report

Quoted By: >>11808151

This statement is not true

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 17 Jun 2020 13:57:16 No.11808151 Report

Quoted By:

>>11807283
>>11808115
>>11808104
How did these retards pass the captcha when they can't read?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 17 Jun 2020 14:11:44 No.11808188 Report

Quoted By: >>11808850 >>11811642

>>11804574
>Apparently this is incorrect
In general, yes.

>and quantum physics shows that you can have statements that are neither true nor false
QM is totally unrelated.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 17 Jun 2020 17:58:17 No.11808850 Report

Quoted By: >>11811327

>>11808188
why do people keep talking about how qm affects logic then?

Anonymous

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Anonymous Wed 17 Jun 2020 22:01:54 No.11809483 Report

Quoted By:

>>11804574
Btw I made a thread a few days ago with this exact thing in mind but abandoned it because my brain hurt.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Jun 2020 08:23:50 No.11810600 Report

Quoted By: >>11810618

>>11804574
nope, true and false are the only options, youre thinking about asking a wrong question or being stupid.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Jun 2020 08:32:48 No.11810618 Report

Quoted By:

>>11810600
Let me guess, you're in school, never thought about anything deeper than surface.

!!Z/Xyk/HqgTu

!!Z/Xyk/HqgTu Thu 18 Jun 2020 09:08:51 No.11810681 Report

Quoted By:

!!A1rDrUl742f

!!A1rDrUl742f Thu 18 Jun 2020 09:09:54 No.11810682 Report

Quoted By:

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Jun 2020 13:50:34 No.11811301 Report

Quoted By: >>11811557

>>11804574
>The answer is that QM exposed the entire idea that something either is or is not (A or not A), by showing that the idea is based on the way humans interpret reality,
Except it's fucking not.
There's not a single part of QM that says that, and everyone claiming otherwise either doesn't understand logic, doesn't understand QM or understands neither.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Jun 2020 13:56:38 No.11811320 Report

Quoted By:

>>11806584
>Particles exist in an indeterminate state until an interaction
"exist in an indeterminate state" has absolutely nothing to do with whether a statement is true or false.

>but can you elaborate more on the empirical finding and how it relates to logical implication? He can't, because an empirical finding disproving a logic law is impossible a priori.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Jun 2020 13:58:56 No.11811327 Report

Quoted By:

>>11808850
>why do people keep talking about how qm affects logic then?
Because they have no clue what they're talking about.
People doesn't understand the difference between *logic* and *common sense*

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Jun 2020 15:46:59 No.11811557 Report

Quoted By:

>>11811301
Are you saying the laws of quantum mechanics match those of standard logic?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Jun 2020 16:08:03 No.11811627 Report

Quoted By: >>11811907

>>11804574
>Every statement is either True or False

A barber shaves everybody who doesn't shave themselves. Who shaves the barber?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Jun 2020 16:11:10 No.11811642 Report

Quoted By: >>11811911

>>11808188
Correct, OP is a tard.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 18 Jun 2020 16:18:23 No.11811665 Report

Quoted By: >>11811911

>>11804574
>Apparently this is incorrect,
It's not.
>and quantum physics shows that you can have statements that are neither true nor false.
No, it doesn't.
>Can someone tell me quantum physics shows this?
It doesn't.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Jun 2020 17:47:11 No.11811907 Report

Quoted By: >>11811912

>>11811627
that's a question not a statement. is everybody on /sci/ illiterate?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Jun 2020 17:48:13 No.11811911 Report

Quoted By: >>11812033

>>11811642
>>11811665
>no u
why do high school drop outs bother respond to threads? have you heard of a thing called 'giving reasons'?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Jun 2020 17:48:20 No.11811912 Report

Quoted By: >>11812080

>>11811907
>The barber shaves everyone who doesn't shave themselves.
Is the statement.

>Who shaves the barber?
Is the invitation to the reader to discover that the previous statement is neither true nor false.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Jun 2020 17:54:01 No.11811929 Report

Quoted By:

>>11804651
Of course you can know it
Thats part of the Gödel shit, that statements can be made which obviously are true or false but in an unituitive way which cannot be proven

A computer cannot theorize about its own programs, so the halting problem exists. But someone can look at the code of a halting problem realted issue and tell you definitively if it will ever halt or not assuming no outside interference. They cannot prove it, but they can demonstrate it and the practical utility of this sort of conclusion is clear

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Jun 2020 18:24:09 No.11812033 Report

Quoted By: >>11812073

>>11811911
What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. OP offered no evidence, thus a "no u" response is sufficient. I applaud the "high school drop out" who responded with the level of effort and detail that this thread deserves.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Jun 2020 18:36:22 No.11812051 Report

Quoted By:

>>11804574
>Every statement is either True or False
Since fucking when?
>this statement is a lie
Literally from greek philosophy or even older

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Jun 2020 18:43:58 No.11812073 Report

Quoted By:

>>11812033
The op was a question. Do you understand what this symbol "?" means? Please fuck off.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Jun 2020 18:45:44 No.11812080 Report

Quoted By:

>>11811912
the first sentence is meaningless. it's like saying 'a man blue if his circle vienna' is neither true nor false. 'the barber shaves everyone...' cannot be reconstructed in formal logic therefore it is not even a statement.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Jun 2020 20:03:09 No.11812265 Report

Quoted By:

>>11806584
>Particles exist in an indeterminate state until an interaction
No, until a measurement.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 18 Jun 2020 21:13:57 No.11812486 Report

Quoted By:

Mathematics adopts the "law of the excluded middle" as an axiom, otherwise math and our ability to provide proof would be vastly more limited. Physics is NOT mathematics.

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