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Using genetics to determine intelligence

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 02:46:07 2020 No.11803403 View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>11803415 >>11803456 >>11803727

>Polygenic scores for intelligence can bring the powerful construct of intelligence to any research in the life sciences without having to assess intelligence through the use of tests.
What’s the backlash going to be when schools determine kids intelligence and put them in classes based on their genetics?

From https://www.nature.com/articles/nrg.2017.104

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 02:49:15 No.11803415 Report

Quoted By: >>11803432 >>11803487 >>11803539

>>11803403
They never will, so there won't be any backlash.
Even in countries with selective schools, it makes more since to be selective based on previous schoolwork, than to be selective based on genetics in an attempt to predict schoolwork.

byebye.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 02:54:14 No.11803432 Report

Quoted By: >>11803483 >>11803688

>>11803415
Except when students are first going to school. Also IQ scores are expensive and take time. It also allows for easier data collection.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 03:03:54 No.11803456 Report

Quoted By: >>11803529 >>11803604

>>11803403
Eventually every human will be assigned a pedigree dictating their usefulness to society. Low pedigree individuals will get castrated, and high-pedigree individuals will be entered into state-mandated breeding programs.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 03:15:21 No.11803483 Report

Quoted By: >>11803531 >>11803539 >>11803543

>>11803432
I think even in 100 years from now, practical testing will be more reliable than genetic analysis for determining intelligence. There are just way too many factors involved. For example, you could have two identical twins who, by the age of 30, have significant difference in certain cognitive abilities.

Genetic analysis would be slower, more costly, and less accurate than regular testing. Collecting all of the samples from everyone, mailing them, analyzing them, and compiling the results is a lot more expensive and time-consuming in total. Having everyone sit in a room with a pencil and paper, or especially a computerized test, is far easier and faster to receive and grade, in addition to being a lot more reliable for the thing you're trying to measure.

Genetic analysis is good for identifying the presence or absence of certain single-gene traits, but not for complex multi-gene traits like general intelligence, which is probably the most complex trait there is.

That said, schools would never do this, but perhaps large-scale research projects might, which is the only thing that paper discusses. The paper makes no mention of schools. Especially if researchers already have access to some genome data sets, they can do some interesting statistical analyses. But obviously it couldn't be used as an individual real-world performance metric in the way you're proposing, or as a substitute for an IQ score.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 03:17:04 No.11803487 Report

Quoted By: >>11803539

>>11803415
And also what this poster said. Way more practical to just judge performance by looking at existing performance. Even an IQ test or other general intelligence test wouldn't be practical for this purpose. And even if it were practical for some purpose, genetic analysis wouldn't be nearly as useful for the same purpose.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 03:43:06 No.11803529 Report

Quoted By: >>11803540 >>11803544

>>11803456
Never gonna happen. We already have useless scum in repeat criminals, and we waste a living wage in tax dollars to keep them alive every year

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 03:44:22 No.11803531 Report

Quoted By:

>>11803483
>Genetic analysis would be slower, more costly, and less accurate than regular testing
You'd only need one test for each person across their lifetime. IQ and academic tests can be trained. You're not being fair to genius poor people who lack access to tutoring. Genetic research is already advanced enough to allow for near complete polygenetic prediction in the future anyway.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 03:48:12 No.11803539 Report

Quoted By: >>11803549

>>11803487
>>11803483
>>11803415
https://edarxiv.org/4j9sy/
We already have the tech to do it. The only reason it’s not widely adopted is because people are scared it will show blacks as being less intelligent lol

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 03:48:15 No.11803540 Report

Quoted By:

>>11803529
Oh it won't happen here, China's already half way there.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 03:50:23 No.11803543 Report

Quoted By:

>>11803483
You don’t take into account that people are already getting their gebes read for other reasons. Doing IQ analysis would add no extra cost.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 03:51:03 No.11803544 Report

Quoted By:

>>11803529
Oh it won't happen here, China's already half way there.

?????? ??? ??? ??? ??? Free Tibet ??????? The Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 ?????? The Tiananmen Square Massacre ????? The Anti-Rightist Struggle ????? The Great Leap Forward ????? The Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution ?? Human Rights ?? Democratization ?? Freedom ?? Independence ??? Multi-party system ?? ?? Taiwan Formosa ???? Republic of China ?? ??? ??? Tibet ???? Dalai Lama ??? Falun Dafa ???????? The Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region ?????? Nobel Peace Prize ??? Liu Xiaobo ?? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ???? ?? ???? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? Free Tibet ?????????

Fuck you gook moot.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 03:55:03 No.11803549 Report

Quoted By: >>11803564

>>11803539
it already exists ? that sounds dubious, if it did exist, the chinese company that are working on monetizing embryonic analysis would have already done made a ton of money. i think they are still working out lots of kinks

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 04:01:58 No.11803564 Report

Quoted By: >>11803570

>>11803549
https://www.technologyreview.com/2019/02/19/137349/china-parents-genetic-testing-for-kids-talent/
They already are.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 04:04:55 No.11803570 Report

Quoted By: >>11803653

>>11803564
>Interest in DNA testing for children is growing in Shenzhen partly thanks to educators the industry has connected with. One big proponent is Chen Tiecheng, a principal of Xuefa Middle School, a short drive away from the clinic. He is pushing what he calls “happiness education,” based on finding and following the innate talents within each child.

>“There’s a saying in China: ‘Don’t let your child lose at the starting line,’” Chen said during a meeting in his office at the school.

>Chen has been giving public lectures on the value of allowing children to pursue their talents instead of pushing them through rigorous rote learning, if that does not fit their personality. His ideas include a heavy reliance on genetic talent tests, although even he admits that “the science might not be totally correct.”
Some times there are benefits to being an evil empire.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 04:24:52 No.11803604 Report

Quoted By: >>11803628 >>11803640

>>11803456
Eventually? Hmm, GWAS at the moment doesn't have the ability to do that. But yes, I do think that in the future with more data collection and etc, people in the field will most likely develop tests that have the ability to accurately predict societal valuable traits in people from genetic analysis alone. However, it doesn't make and iota of sense to assume castration or people being assigned society usefulness scores will come along with that. That sounds like some white nationalist pol fetish fantasy. First, nobody knows when this tech will be accurate enough that its prediction becomes superior to non-genetic testing methods, so for all anybody knows this could occur in a world where something like AI has gotten powerful enough it could automate most jobs in the economy, which would drastically change thinking about "usefulness to society".

Or, more likely, why assume technology to alter genes won't grow along side advances in genetic testing since they're very connected? For instance, instead of using genetic screening to bully people or for forced castration, why not advocate for gov't subsidizes towards embryo selection by trait, or later down the road, flat out genetic editing thru crispr like technologies. That approach is more humane, ethical, and fair than the demented /pol/ approaches.

Honestly, when ever this discussion comes up, it seems to me like you /pol/ types are just using the facade of Iq/genes as an excuse to advocate for genociding black people because every time I see one of you bring up these imagined futuristic scenarios about when society can state ones IQ from a genetic test, you always exclude the possibility of any future technology that could modify genetics of societal valuable traits. In your hypothetical, the solution always is sterilization and some remark/hint that black ppl will be the ones sterilized. Its really creepy.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 04:35:06 No.11803628 Report

Quoted By: >>11803640

>>11803604
You believe China cares about being "humane" or "ethical"? AI is a meme, the only jobs left will be academic in nature anyways. Like I said, it won't happen here, at least not originally. When China implements it, their power will necessarily leak out to the rest of the world, most likely forcing us to follow suit.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 04:41:11 No.11803640 Report

Quoted By:

>>11803604
>>11803628
Also, the whole "genociding black people" thing wasn't me. I don't care, you guys probably have promising future academics, white people definitely have stupid trash.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 04:51:35 No.11803653 Report

Quoted By: >>11803682

>>11803570
i thought current PGS only predicted about 25% of the variance in IQ

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 05:03:58 No.11803682 Report

Quoted By:

>>11803653
Enough for the chinks

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 05:06:00 No.11803688 Report

Quoted By: >>11803693 >>11803696 >>11803709

>>11803432
An IQ test is definitely cheaper and easier than a DNA test

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 05:07:04 No.11803693 Report

Quoted By:

>>11803688
Nope. Not if the DNA test was done for other reasons. We are getting to the point where everyone will have their genes sequenced eventually even if for other reasons so using those already sequenced genes for IQ testing doesn't add much to the cost.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 05:07:56 No.11803696 Report

Quoted By:

>>11803688
It literally costs more money to take an IQ test than it does to get a 23andMe test.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 05:14:29 No.11803709 Report

Quoted By:

>>11803688
No it's not

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 05:26:21 No.11803727 Report

Quoted By: >>11803806 >>11803865

>>11803403
Germany has been doing this for decades. They don't do genetic testing, they sort kids by their grades and performance after grade 5. Gymnasium kids are the "smartest" and have an easy way to college, Hauptschule kids are the "dumbest" and have to jump through hoops to go to college. You'll also get far worse teachers in Hauptschule, so even if you were sorted wrongly, the only chance to go "up" is tutoring/self learning. It recieves backlash, for various reasons. Some say that the system was created to cater to social status. Haupt is for low class, Real is for middle class, Gymnasium is for higher middle class and upper class. Some say it you can't determine it so soon because kids are playful. Some say it hinders kids with domestic problems. Etc.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 05:42:14 No.11803760 Report

Quoted By: >>11803826

So how exactly does selection for polygenic scores work? Is it mainly the embryo that gets selected for based on simulated runs against a large GWAS?

Do sperm factor into the equation at all and how accurate is it in selecting for IQ?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 06:04:59 No.11803806 Report

Quoted By: >>11803836

>>11803727
It's better than the shitshow that is the American schooling system. Germany understands that not everyone can be a physicist, very practical, promotes social order and for families to care about their children. I'd say the backlash is pretty unfounded. Of course China pretty much has the same system, but you go to the fields/sweatshops if you fail.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 06:16:10 No.11803826 Report

Quoted By: >>11803936

>>11803760
I'm glad you asked because I'm pretty sure no one in this thread understands genetics well.

Basically they are using a study that managed to get an explanation of 4% in total variance in intelligence based on a shit load of genes. Then they found another set of big ass clusters that seems like they relate and managed to explain a whopping 10% of variance in intelligence and 20% if variance due to heritibility. Heritability of intelligence being a naive study comparing parent to offspring scores.

So how does one select for polygenetic traits? The answer is ya don't. Not really. The only way to get it as is in this paper would be through a massive genome reconstruction, like absolutely huge. A poly gene means we don't understand the underlying architecture of the genetics to give it any form meaning. Instead we have correlation clusters. So you can shotgun a bunch of those clusters that correlate with high intelligence. But I doubt it would do much and could even result in some severe defects as a polygene by nature relies on far more than just the gene cluster to operate. So by selecting for a couple clusters there might be a contraindication causing a severe and novel genetic disease to arise.

Frankly they are taking way too many leaps and thinking GATTACA was a prophecy instead of a cautionary prediction. We are years out from doing simple gene augmentation on embryos. We are unfathomably far out from scaffolding a whole ass genome for something as flimsy as "correlates with some variance in intelligence"

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 06:19:38 No.11803836 Report

Quoted By:

>>11803806
>>11803806
I can definitely agree that it's better than the American system. My only issue with it is that it's not compatable with other systems, so if you move to Germany from another country, they might put you a year or two back.
Sweatshops if you fail is better than being homeless or, god forbid, on social care (lots of people in Germany abuse social care, easier to watch TV and get paid than work lol)

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 06:33:52 No.11803865 Report

Quoted By: >>11803880

>>11803727
They've started letting in dumber kids to the higher schools, especially Turks, in order to be more politically correct. Online friends from Germany tell me it isn't as merit based anymore.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 06:39:26 No.11803880 Report

Quoted By:

>>11803865
Can confirm, went to Gymnasium with more than 50% immigrants. Most are dumb as rocks.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 16 Jun 2020 07:17:56 No.11803936 Report

Quoted By:

>>11803826

Thank you for the detailed explanation anon. Much appreciated, I was interested in seeing how much it differed from previous efforts of selection. If I understand your post correctly the biggest difference comes from the fact we can utilize large archives of genes to compare it against genomes of couples who want kids. But the actual selection process for said interested couples is still not accurate enough to guarantee good returns. It's mostly for practical awareness of the odds involving the genes a kid could attain.

So maybe akin to a peek at the various sets of dice and their combinations within a game but falls short of controlling the dice roll itself? More a novelty for knowledge's sake than a tool ready for the commercial market (for humans that is). And if a couple is interested in utilizing the procedure they probably will have to sign some waiver that acknowledges the results aren't guaranteed.

Feel free to correct me if I got any of this wrong.

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