/sci/ - Science & Math » Thread #11552532

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Anonymous Fri 10 Apr 22:32:16 2020 No.11552532 View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>11552539 >>11552544 >>11552554 >>11553720 >>11553802 >>11553837 >>11553846 >>11554197 >>11554206 >>11554244 >>11554581 >>11555740 >>11556873 >>11556921 >>11556990 >>11557212 >>11559626 >>11560634 >>11561032

To what extent does language shape our perception of reality?
Say if we learn a non-linear written language that conveys complex meaning with a single shape rather than using syllables and words like the "heptapod language" from the movie Arrival. Would that rewire our brains to perceive time differently?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 10 Apr 2020 22:34:33 No.11552539 Report

Quoted By:

>>11552532
Nice popsci question, upvoted good sir!

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 10 Apr 2020 22:36:19 No.11552544 Report

Quoted By:

>>11552532
every time you view a situation, visualize its future really well. itll get natural

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 10 Apr 2020 22:39:48 No.11552554 Report

Quoted By:

>>11552532
Why are you limiting language to symbols and word and not considering the signals that are being transmitted throughout your brain?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 11 Apr 2020 07:11:40 No.11553720 Report

Quoted By: >>11553727 >>11554250 >>11554449 >>11554451 >>11556528 >>11557725

>>11552532
Very. There is a YouTube video I'm sure someone here has the link to where tribe people are absolutely baffled by a researcher asking them to point at the color that is different in a circle of 12 colors.. He does the same to a western guy with colors that a tribesman has different words for and is equally baffled and incapable of pointing at the different color.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 11 Apr 2020 07:15:00 No.11553727 Report

Quoted By: >>11554449 >>11560617

>>11553720
Ah here:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mgxyfqHRPoE
It's not the original documentation, but someone commenting on it. The original is much better though, since it shows the reactions of the test subjects.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 11 Apr 2020 07:59:23 No.11553802 Report

Quoted By:

>>11552532
no

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 11 Apr 2020 08:18:42 No.11553837 Report

Quoted By:

>>11552532
Language can undoubtedly "rewire" your brain to make you perceive all kinds of things. Pulling information from the future is way past that.
I mean, imagine that psychedelics could make you better at playing the lottery. That's the kind of thing we're talking about here.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 11 Apr 2020 08:23:24 No.11553846 Report

Quoted By:

>>11552532
Sapir Whorf is discredited

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 11 Apr 2020 08:27:02 No.11553849 Report

Quoted By: >>11556535

Limited Language and Relational Language shapes are immediate thought processes and our expectations.
For example, the concept of "blue" didn't exist in most cultures until recently.
VSauce did a great video on this called "The Invention of Blue" or some shit.
Many neuroscientists believe humans for instance lack language for complex emotions, believing we have as many as 200 different emotional states, but have a tendency to limit our explanations of them due to a lack of language.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 11 Apr 2020 12:50:04 No.11554197 Report

Quoted By: >>11554270

>>11552532
To an incredibly large extent. People in languages which have the same word for blue and green are unable to differentiate the colors on tests. This applies to all concepts.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 11 Apr 2020 12:51:38 No.11554200 Report

Quoted By: >>11560620

Why are we talking about the generalizability of a given activity/event and not generalizing said event with our own languages?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 11 Apr 2020 12:53:37 No.11554206 Report

Quoted By:

>>11552532
it doesn't, we don't perceive arbitrary layers of abstraction.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 11 Apr 2020 13:17:15 No.11554244 Report

Quoted By:

>>11552532
>Would that rewire our brains to perceive time differently?
No, but good idea for a movie. Also, if you do manage to do that, find me and tell me about it. I'd be glad to be wrong about it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 11 Apr 2020 13:20:14 No.11554250 Report

Quoted By: >>11554312 >>11554449

>>11553720
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xl7eh1
-------------------------------------------
Horizon Do You See What I See Part 4-4
himba color test at 2m30s

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 11 Apr 2020 13:25:17 No.11554270 Report

Quoted By: >>11554312 >>11557872 >>11558704

>>11554197
are you retarded? do you really think people who haven't learned the word for "blue" and "green" see the exact same shade and their cognition literally can't differentiate between shades that aren't in their vocabulary?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 11 Apr 2020 13:45:09 No.11554312 Report

Quoted By:

>>11554250
That's it!
Thanks.

>>11554270
See post above.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 11 Apr 2020 15:02:54 No.11554449 Report

Quoted By: >>11557871

>>11554250
>>11553720
>>11553727
This only shows a correlation between having words to distinguish certain colors and being able to see them. But it seems a lot more likely one is not the cause of the other and that both are actually the result of experience. For example, maybe the himba needs to distinguish different colored leaves to know which are safe to eat, and as a result they learned both the ability to see them and words for them.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 11 Apr 2020 15:03:04 No.11554451 Report

Quoted By: >>11554459 >>11554475

>>11553720
I already know what you’re talking about and it’s retarded.
What are the odds that language shaped their vision instead of the other way around due to genetics?
The (((researcher))) never considered that hypothesis

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 11 Apr 2020 15:05:51 No.11554459 Report

Quoted By:

>>11554451
Since we're all genetically the same, that is obviously ruled out.
>it's difficult to believe for me so it's retarded

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 11 Apr 2020 15:11:48 No.11554475 Report

Quoted By: >>11557885

>>11554451
It doesn't even have to be genetics, just a little training and you can see the difference in color easily.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 11 Apr 2020 16:06:28 No.11554581 Report

Quoted By:

>>11552532
>non-linear written language
what does this mean? nothing is linear in the real world

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 11 Apr 2020 22:29:10 No.11555740 Report

Quoted By:

>>11552532
not to the point where you can see backwards in time
retarded movie

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 12 Apr 2020 04:45:39 No.11556528 Report

Quoted By: >>11556852

>>11553720
Yeah, but what's the point of having a name for each and every single color in a gradient? That's legitimately a really stupid thing to do, an enormous waste of brain resources.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 12 Apr 2020 04:48:11 No.11556535 Report

Quoted By:

>>11553849
Again, what's the point of having huge amounts of definitions to distinguish between emotions? That the reason why poetry is so useless, you name things others can't see easily, but it's just stupid and useless in the end. You will never develop an antilock brake system or an MRI machine because you like to fill the voids between emotions. It's a stupid task.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 12 Apr 2020 08:01:04 No.11556852 Report

Quoted By:

>>11556528
You're just proving it correct, by not seeing the odd color out as its own color but just another spot on the gradient. Really interesting.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 12 Apr 2020 08:09:01 No.11556873 Report

Quoted By:

>>11552532
That movie is amazing, but cognitive linguistics suggests that maybe language is a window to how the brain works instead of the vice versa.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 12 Apr 2020 08:48:25 No.11556921 Report

Quoted By: >>11556995

>>11552532
It's easier for you to think about stuff you can explain by language. It's natural, because you're using one more cortex.

Also phenomens you can describe by shapes can help if you're mathematician.

Actually you would percieve more done per time more than actual time change.

It's hard to imagine subjects time reference frame and what is moment.

e.g. I don't have time. I ran out of it long time ago and I cannot be what I want.

It's easy to explain what tesselation is by using words, it's easy by picture too.

But corelation with language and visual and auditory appeal is crucial.

More dense language in early childhood, the brain can catch up with it and evolve to understand things serotogenically impaired adults cannot really learn.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 12 Apr 2020 09:37:18 No.11556990 Report

Quoted By: >>11560638

>>11552532
To a large extent. Especially for programming languages. Any programmer here can tell you that you end up projecting computer science notions onto everyday situations in your life. Sometimes to a fault.
>It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration – Dijkstra
I love the phrase "mental mutliation." You make your habits, then your habits make you. Which is to say patterns you engage in frequently mutate/multilate your brain. What patterns do we reinforce more than our language?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 12 Apr 2020 09:38:50 No.11556995 Report

Quoted By: >>11557422

>>11556921
>serotogenically impaired
What exactly is this and what are the implications?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 12 Apr 2020 12:04:14 No.11557212 Report

Quoted By:

>>11552532
the short story this film was based on is miles better

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 12 Apr 2020 12:45:22 No.11557278 Report

Quoted By:

Might help everyone to think on when that word we call 'ours' gets updated or how a language/community/culture actively encourages propagation through our channels.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 12 Apr 2020 14:11:47 No.11557422 Report

Quoted By:

>>11556995
It's that I am given serotning antagonist from doctors along with a "cure" that is stopping encoding serotnin from DNA, atleast that's what ministry of health is saying.

Therefore I lack serotonin to dynamically switch contexts I am thinking about or it causes literally sadness and depression.

But nobody can prescribe me a cannabis, because psychiatrist would went bankrupt then.

It's like I'm getting meds on psychosis caused by taking meds,...

Well, it's that you have anti trip and anti meth at same time in head and it creates some rigidness in the thought pattern...

Thanks god I have some stimulants, otherwise I would sleep 16 hours a day and never feel rested,

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 12 Apr 2020 15:49:26 No.11557706 Report

Quoted By:

The current theory of mental grammar n linguistics is that all languages are represented mentally by the same structures and operations.
This implies that no language can be fundamentally different from another on the level of deep mental representation, and so no, language has basically no impact on our perception of the world except in very extreme cases such as when someone grows up without learning one.
Arrival has absolutely no basis in real linguistics or psychology. It's a cool SciFi movie with an interesting idea, but it doesn't actually have anything meaningful to say about the real world.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 12 Apr 2020 15:53:54 No.11557725 Report

Quoted By:

>>11553720
The causation is backwards here. We don't distinguish colours differently because we have different words for them, we have different words for them because we distinguish them differently.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 12 Apr 2020 16:31:23 No.11557871 Report

Quoted By:

>>11554449
>This only shows
"which one is different" doesn't require naming the different one, pointing at it is enough

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 12 Apr 2020 16:31:55 No.11557872 Report

Quoted By:

>>11554270
it's not that they can't see the difference, it's that they have hard time deciding where's the border between each color. My 2 year old daughter calls blue and green with the same name. With time she'll learn to differentiate them. The difference between bordering colors is a social convention. Some shades of blue as are called in the west are recognized as green in Japan. Google Japan traffic light to see what I mean.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 12 Apr 2020 16:35:52 No.11557885 Report

Quoted By:

>>11554475
yeah it's the not seeing part, the one that's easy for westerners that is the mindblowing-thing here.
that doesn't happen unless something very different than expected is going on here

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 12 Apr 2020 20:48:19 No.11558704 Report

Quoted By:

>>11554270
Visual disabilities aside, phenomenology is different than conceptualization.

You may experience the phenomenology of seeing blue or green whatever how you experience it, but without a conceptual interpretation, it lacks meaning in your perception of reality. I. e. you need abstractions in order to understand reality, otherwise you just feel nonsense, quite literally.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Apr 2020 03:09:33 No.11559626 Report

Quoted By:

>>11552532
>Would that rewire our brains to perceive time differently?
We're already doing that with block / landscape time and Wheeler’s gedanken experiment and there's absolutely no need to shit octopus ink at each other to achieve it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Apr 2020 12:45:12 No.11560617 Report

Quoted By:

>>11553727
This 'experiment' is bullshit!

https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=18237

Read this article which points out the serious flaws in the basics of the experiment.

The claim that language changes our perception of colours is just retarded. How can someone not distinguish between blue and fucking green? These are so extremely different colours

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Apr 2020 12:46:15 No.11560620 Report

Quoted By:

>>11554200
This!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Apr 2020 12:58:47 No.11560634 Report

Quoted By:

It's a shame that Arrival was more about pre-destiny bullshit than the concept of alien language.

>>11552532
Primitive logic operations are graphical, rather than sequential. And our brains are therefore graphical, rather than sequential.

The graphical structure of the brain monitors change, which we perceive as the flow of time. Verbal communication focuses our attention on a small serial channel of change.

The question is whether narrowing the channel that we observe is desirable or just a consequence of life not having a way of developing telepathy. Stated another way, if humans could communicate images telepathically, then would verbal communication be considered degenerate, or might it still be preferred for some reason?

Dolphins possibly communicate more graphically, or "telepathically" than humans via sonar.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Apr 2020 13:04:26 No.11560638 Report

Quoted By:

>>11556990
That quote is out of date. He's talking about the sort of Basic where GOTO statements were necessary. Modern Basics are just a flavor of Algolese.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 13 Apr 2020 16:05:11 No.11561032 Report

Quoted By:

>>11552532
>stem automaton tries his hand at epistemology
read Wittgenstein

the arrival concept is stupid though, we've been over hieroglyphs already

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