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Maths: universal or local language?

Anonymous Tue 11 Feb 19:46:48 2020 No.11377510 View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>11377532 >>11377547

Is there a possibility that our maths are only valid in our particular region of the universe?

In other words, besides a black hole or close to the singularity, where the universe gets fucked up, could 1+1=1.5?
Also nothing looks/behave as we know on the quantum level since our laws of physics doesn't seem to apply there so why should math be considered universal?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 11 Feb 2020 19:56:56 No.11377532 Report

Quoted By: >>11377565

>>11377510
>Is there a possibility that our maths are only valid in our particular region of the universe?

No, because mathematics is semantically rather than empirically motivated. You introduce some category, claim that two objects belong to the same category and then deduce from this by virtue of said objects actually existing, that there are two objects subsumed under one category.
>In other words, besides a black hole or close to the singularity, where the universe gets fucked up, could 1+1=1.5?
No except when the enviroment makes any such statement invalid/non-sensical in the first place.
>Also nothing looks/behave as we know on the quantum level since our laws of physics doesn't seem to apply there so why should math be considered universal?
You again presuppose that empirical data is relevant when it comes to abstract mathematics. It only becomes relevant once you actually apply mathematics on the data.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 11 Feb 2020 20:01:52 No.11377543 Report

Quoted By: >>11377544

http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/wadler/papers/propositions-as-types/propositions-as-types.pdf

> Proposition as Types informs our view of the universality of certain programming languages.

>The Pioneer spaceship contains a plaque designed to communicate with aliens, if any should ever intercept it (see Figure 9). They may find some parts of it easier to interpret than others. A radial diagram shows the distance of fourteen pulsars and the centre of the galaxy from Sol. Aliens are likely to determine that the length of each line is proportional to the distances to each body. Another diagram shows humans in front of a silhouette of Pioneer. If Star Trek gives an accurate conception of alien species, they may respond “They look just like us, except they lack pubic hair.” However, if the aliens’s perceptual system differs greatly from our own, they may be unable to decipher these squiggles. What would happen if we tried to communicate with aliens by transmitting a computer program? In the movie Independence Day, the heroes destroy the invading alien mother ship by infecting it with a computer virus. Close inspection of the transmitted program shows it contains curly braces—it is written in a dialect of C! It is unlikely that alien species would program in C, and unclear that aliens could decipher a program written in C if presented with one.

>What about lambda calculus? Propositions as Types tell us that lambda calculus is isomorphic to natural deduction. It seems difficult to conceive of alien beings that do not know the fundamentals of logic, and we might expect the problem of deciphering a program written in lambda calculus to be closer to the problem of understanding the radial diagram of pulsars than that of understanding the image of a man and a woman on the Pioneer plaque.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 11 Feb 2020 20:02:56 No.11377544 Report

Quoted By:

>>11377543
> We might be tempted to conclude that lambda calculus is universal, but first let’s ponder the suitability of the word ‘universal’. These days the multiple worlds interpretation of quantum physics is widely accepted. Scientists imagine that in different universes one might encounter different fundamental constants, such as the strength of gravity or the Planck constant. But easy as it may be to imagine a universe where gravity differs, it is difficult to conceive of a universe where fundamental rules of logic fail to apply. Natural deduction, and hence lambda calculus, should not only be known by aliens throughout our universe, but also throughout others. So we may conclude it would be a mistake to characterise lambda calculus as a universal language, because calling it universal would be too limiting.

This paper should be posted every time a question such as this is asked.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 11 Feb 2020 20:04:00 No.11377547 Report

Quoted By: >>11377565

>>11377510

Why are Black holes so beautiful and elegant? I can tell if I learned this culturally due to the ''muh wonder'' gen but, I genuinely feel like I am gazing upon the meaning of elegance and beauty itself

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 11 Feb 2020 20:12:05 No.11377565 Report

Quoted By: >>11377580

>>11377532
>No, because mathematics is semantically rather than empirically motivated. You introduce some category, claim that two objects belong to the same category and then deduce from this by virtue of said objects actually existing, that there are two objects subsumed under one category.
>You again presuppose that empirical data is relevant when it comes to abstract mathematics. It only becomes relevant once you actually apply mathematics on the data.

Fair enough, I cannot argue that...
Thought my question was dumb and it kinda is

But do you think everything in the universe is "perfect"? that no "errors" occur or occured somewhere?
If the universe truly is infinite, I currently can't imagine that the sames rules apply in every cubic meter of it

>>11377547
I don't know anon
But I wish I could get close to one, never into it though
Too afraid of what lies in there

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 11 Feb 2020 20:21:35 No.11377580 Report

Quoted By: >>11377609 >>11377657

>>11377565
Mathematics is an approximation when it comes to the real world and it becomes increasingly less accurate/more non-sensical the smaller things are. This has to do with the fact that applied mathematics presupposes that objects exist independently of other objects or that their qualities are independent of other objects. We know that this is not the case once we're talking about a sufficiently small world.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 11 Feb 2020 20:36:30 No.11377609 Report

Quoted By: >>11377657 >>11377701

>>11377580
t.brainlet
The universe is governed by math. Scenarios where our understanding of physics fails to emulate reality is caused by incompleteness of our methods, not a failure of math.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 11 Feb 2020 20:47:48 No.11377657 Report

Quoted By:

>>11377609
If we follow maths logic... the possibility that an error occured in an infinite universe cannot be equal to 0

>>11377580
I believe this anon is right

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 11 Feb 2020 21:09:12 No.11377701 Report

Quoted By:

>>11377609
>The universe is governed by math
An assumption and not one that you could even prove properly.
>Scenarios where our understanding of physics fails to emulate reality is caused by incompleteness of our methods, not a failure of math.
This is eerily reminiscent to what physicists thought in the beginning 20th century where they considered classic mechanics to be the self-evident foundation of the universe.

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