/sci/ - Science & Math » Thread #11347439

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Anonymous Fri 31 Jan 05:44:04 2020 No.11347439 View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>11347444 >>11347489 >>11347500 >>11347637 >>11347682 >>11347879 >>11348178 >>11348201 >>11348925 >>11352016 >>11352049 >>11352085 >>11352933 >>11353203 >>11353879

Honest to god serious question -

> GM Ben Finegold & many others say that men and women, in general, are equally skilled at CHESS; the reason for there being less women in the top ranks is due to less women playing chess, compared to men.

This seems correct, correct?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Jan 2020 05:46:09 No.11347444 Report

Quoted By: >>11347890 >>11352432

>>11347439
Name one highly intellectual field that woman are better than man?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Jan 2020 05:47:04 No.11347446 Report

Quoted By: >>11347496 >>11350705

No its because women are weaker than men, it's not just chess pretty much every skill in the world that both men and women can do men are better it, this is what Plato said as well.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Jan 2020 05:49:35 No.11347455 Report

Quoted By: >>11347485 >>11347488 >>11348385

Is it right? Probably.
But buddy, you're on /sci/, you don't come here for a nuanced discussion on the barriers women face in society, you come here to see the same 3 charts about IQ applied in varying contexts. Enjoy your stay

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Jan 2020 06:01:51 No.11347485 Report

Quoted By:

>>11347455
About 15-20% of competive chess players are female so by your logic about the same percentage of top players should be female yet theres only one female in the top 100 and the 2nd highest rated female is farther out from 100.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Jan 2020 06:04:32 No.11347488 Report

Quoted By: >>11347637

>>11347455
About 15-20% of active chess players are female so by your logic about the same percentage of top players should be female yet theres only one female in the top 100 and the 2nd highest rated female is farther out from 100.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Jan 2020 06:04:39 No.11347489 Report

Quoted By: >>11348279

>>11347439
>game of autism
>autism is mostly men
bam

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Jan 2020 06:08:16 No.11347496 Report

Quoted By:

>>11347446
Enjoy your ban /pol/ shitlord. This is an inclusive board hehe

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Jan 2020 06:11:47 No.11347500 Report

Quoted By:

>>11347439
men have one sd advantage in spatial ability, this is the same magnitude as the bw gap for an idea of the size. intense concentration is a male trait as well, think of soldiers in war or pilots, almost universally men

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Jan 2020 06:30:29 No.11347536 Report

Quoted By:

OP HERE,

Appreciate all your answers and help thus far, I'm starting to better understand the situation.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Jan 2020 07:21:36 No.11347637 Report

Quoted By: >>11347641 >>11347818 >>11353258

>>11347439
>1,000 AD in Europe
>All the academics agree that the Bible is true

>1950 in Russia
>Everyone agrees that Communism is humanity's future

>2020
>Everyone agrees with some politically correct notion
I'm not saying you should automatically reject Finegold's explanation.

But at least realize that publicly stating something like "women are less skilled at X for innate biological reasons" would harm the careers of many academics. So they can't say it, even if they believe it privately. They also may not be able to study it, because a public study also might harm their career.

And, as a result of this weak censorship, and the fact that it's difficult to empirically test any hypothesis we put forward, we aren't ever really going to completely answer this question.

>>11347488
Being 15%-20% of the active chess players, even if there are no biological differences between the sexes, doesn't necessarily mean they're going to be 15%-20% of the chess elite.

For example, maybe mastering chess requires extensive memorization of openings, and for cultural reasons, only 2% of active male players, and 0% of active female players are willing to spend thousands of hours memorizing openings. And the chess elite is composed of a few people from that 2%.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Jan 2020 07:26:14 No.11347641 Report

Quoted By: >>11348948

>>11347637
Chess doesn't require lots of memorization that's a meme

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Jan 2020 07:31:38 No.11347645 Report

Quoted By:

memorizing openings is not something chess players spend a lot of time on. They study different lines that can come out of a opening and decide which ones are beneficial.

They don't memorize every single one of those lines, they get into something good and play adaptively.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Jan 2020 07:55:43 No.11347682 Report

Quoted By: >>11347697 >>11347704 >>11353212

>>11347439
Since no one here seems to be competent in the realm of professional chess, I'll give my opinion

A significant problem in determining relative chess skill over time in men is elo inflation and deflation
Given that men and women compete in their own elo pools, it would be equivalent to comparing the top 10 richest in one currency, to the top 10 richest in another currency, without accounting for the worth of each unit of currency; though this is a flawed analogy
The thing that needs to be considered is competition directly between men and women, or between 'men and computers' and 'women and computers' where the computers are of the same skill.
Consider Judit Polgar
She has done relatively well against male opponents, even former world champions and magnus carlsen, and was once ranked 8th best player in the world

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Jan 2020 08:06:41 No.11347697 Report

Quoted By:

>>11347682
By that logic women players have even lower ratings since they're playing weaker opponents

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Jan 2020 08:15:31 No.11347704 Report

Quoted By:

>>11347682
You've shed light on an important point:
>the thing that needs to be considered is competition directly between men and women, or between 'men and computers' and 'women and computers' where the computers are of the same skill
Is there any information relating to the above that we can draw something of a conclusion from?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Jan 2020 09:57:36 No.11347818 Report

Quoted By:

>>11347637
Still doesn't add up, there are lots of population groups for example Jewish chess players that account for a less percentage of active chess players than female ones but are represented highly in the top players. You're making excuses.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Jan 2020 10:30:13 No.11347847 Report

Quoted By: >>11347852 >>11347900

Females are taught from a young age that they aren't good enough, that they're inferior to men in all aspects. Of course they're going to be underrepresented in things such as chess, they've simply never had the self-confidence to participate in these male-dominant activities.

There's no difference in IQ between men and women - it's clear that women have the potential to be just as successful as men are at chess.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Jan 2020 10:36:09 No.11347852 Report

Quoted By: >>11347895

>>11347847
you don't seem to have any connection to reality

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Jan 2020 10:53:17 No.11347879 Report

Quoted By: >>11348270

>>11347439
>IRINA KRUSH
Daily reminder that during the KASPAROV VS THE WORLD chess match, she's the incompetent female GM who recommended the blunder move 54. ... b4?? and resulted in the loss of the World team.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Jan 2020 11:01:32 No.11347890 Report

Quoted By:

>>11347444
There is none, but they're equally good.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Jan 2020 11:03:12 No.11347895 Report

Quoted By: >>11347907

>>11347852
says the basement dweller

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Jan 2020 11:09:12 No.11347900 Report

Quoted By:

>>11347847

>there's no difference in IQ between men and women

Incorrect, see https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Sex-related-differences-in-general-intelligence-g%2C-Nyborg/240ba64fca49cb54304981fed3670945bc69923e

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Jan 2020 11:14:26 No.11347907 Report

Quoted By:

>>11347895
A what?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Jan 2020 11:17:03 No.11347916 Report

Quoted By: >>11347965

on verbal/reasoning men and women have roughly the same average but men have a flatter bell curve with more at he extremes.
visuo-spatial tends to correlate more with brain size and men have higher averages.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Jan 2020 11:44:05 No.11347965 Report

Quoted By:

>>11347916
Someone did an exposing on this, the study tested males and females at age 13 when females were closer to their fully devopled intellect where as boys develop slower. Basically the test was done to try give females an advantage but males still had higher IQs. In adult males and females the average IQ would probably be higher for males

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Jan 2020 13:25:09 No.11348178 Report

Quoted By: >>11348192 >>11348362

>>11347439

FEMALE = Higher IQ than males on average

MALE = Has more outliers with crazy high IQ

So the average girl is smarter than the average man. But the smartest men are smarter than the smartest women. Meaning at the highest levels men occupy most positions.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Jan 2020 13:29:49 No.11348192 Report

Quoted By:

>>11348178
>FEMALE = Higher IQ than males on average

more like 1-2 points lower

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Jan 2020 13:34:12 No.11348201 Report

Quoted By: >>11348244

>>11347439
GM Finegold is an obese vegan jew.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Jan 2020 14:03:03 No.11348244 Report

Quoted By:

>>11348201
>ad hominem

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Jan 2020 14:13:03 No.11348270 Report

Quoted By: >>11350246

>>11347879
lmao, wasn't she also the one who got crushed badly by gunina on chess.com?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Jan 2020 14:18:02 No.11348279 Report

Quoted By:

>>11347489
kek

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Jan 2020 14:51:36 No.11348362 Report

Quoted By:

>>11348178
This is false check >>11348178
13 year old girls have higher IQ than 13 year old boys on average but adult males have higher IQ on average than adult females

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Jan 2020 15:00:54 No.11348385 Report

Quoted By:

>>11347455
what barriers? women receive more encouragement and better treatment than men at all levels of education.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Jan 2020 18:41:47 No.11348925 Report

Quoted By:

>>11347439
Every woman who has ever attempted to compete against any man in chess was utterly destroyed, ergo that's false.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 31 Jan 2020 18:52:12 No.11348948 Report

Quoted By: >>11350377

>>11347641
t. never played chess even at the amateur level.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Feb 2020 02:57:32 No.11350246 Report

Quoted By:

>>11348270
yes she is

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Feb 2020 03:59:21 No.11350377 Report

Quoted By: >>11350383

>>11348948
I do play, memorization is for poor players who cant see good moves

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Feb 2020 04:01:09 No.11350383 Report

Quoted By:

>>11350377
t. doesn't even know what the big piece whose capture ends the game is called

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Feb 2020 07:28:34 No.11350705 Report

Quoted By: >>11351972

>>11347446
>this is what Plato said as well
Where did Plato say this? Plato said men and women should be represented equally in the professions, and women should take part in war as well.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Feb 2020 18:05:43 No.11351972 Report

Quoted By: >>11352567

>>11350705
He said that women are capable of doing all the taaks men do(which of they are) so in the society proposed in the republic there would be female warriors in war because it's simply extra swords. But it writes that men will always be better at these tasks than women, maybe he writes there will he an outlier a strong woman who could beat a weak man at a task but there will be men who are better at it, and he says tasks even stuff like cooking men are better at that are considered for women and youd be mocked if you can do it better than a woman.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Feb 2020 18:20:31 No.11352016 Report

Quoted By: >>11352560

>>11347439
If that were the case, you would have to wonder why the female players, despite being a smaller proportion, don't have the same skill spread that men do. Unless the women who are good at chess are somehow being suppressed? I suppose if you look at it from the perspective of men having a larger pool to draw upon, and thus find more top-tier (autistic) people, that might make sense.

We could probably answer this question if we looked at a distribution of rank for each gender. If the female one had the same proportions as the male one, it stands to reason that an increased number of women would have an increased number of top-level female players.

Personally, I think women just don't have the brains for it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Feb 2020 18:30:42 No.11352049 Report

Quoted By: >>11352089

>>11347439
Testosterone is linked to what we call "positive illusions" which is basically just confidence and being confident in your abilities is both attractive to others (ie more likely to get promoted) and the confident person is more likely to to be decisive and willing to commit to something. Where confidence and competence intersect, you get great people. Competent women lacking the confidence will never succeed as much.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Feb 2020 18:41:04 No.11352085 Report

Quoted By: >>11352588

>>11347439
Interest in something tends to be correlated with being good at it or having an aptitude for it, so no. The question was largely solved at the onset, because most of the people who are interested in and play chess or things resembling chess have always been men.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Feb 2020 18:42:11 No.11352089 Report

Quoted By: >>11352578

>>11352049
so women are confident enough to be doctors and even surgeons but moving chess pieces while sitting across from someone else moving chess pieces is a bridge too far eh

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Feb 2020 20:27:16 No.11352400 Report

Quoted By:

Robert Sapolsky mentioned in a talk that as good as women may be men seem better able to do it at high levels for extended periods of extremely focused time.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Feb 2020 20:40:19 No.11352432 Report

Quoted By: >>11352450

>>11347444
medicine

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Feb 2020 20:47:00 No.11352447 Report

Quoted By:

I'm almost 100% sure that if Finegold said that, he was being sarcastic.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Feb 2020 20:49:59 No.11352450 Report

Quoted By:

>>11352432
your claim is that women are better in medicine than men, whatever that means
can you now proceed to back up your claim?

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 01 Feb 2020 21:33:54 No.11352560 Report

Quoted By:

>>11352016

OP back again, really enjoying reading these posts; the following is essentially Finegold's position (fat vegan jew lol), and I've heard others repeat it.

>If that were the case, you would have to wonder why the female players, despite being a smaller proportion, don't have the same skill spread that men do. Unless the women who are good at chess are somehow being suppressed? I suppose if you look at it from the perspective of men having a larger pool to draw upon, and thus find more top-tier (autistic) people, that might make sense.

I understand that if we go with the 'good women players are suppressed' explanation, they're essentially a claim has been made which requires supporting evidence.

The alternative, which appears to be a kind of claim about the mechanisms of group/selection theory (is that even the right term?) is what I have heard on several occasions.

Appreciate all the replies.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Feb 2020 21:35:29 No.11352567 Report

Quoted By: >>11353184

>>11351972
which dialogue and passages?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Feb 2020 21:38:25 No.11352578 Report

Quoted By: >>11352944

>>11352089
You don't need confidence to get a degree—in fact, I'd more say that a degree is a substitute for confidence in women. Specifically because they lack confidence, they require external validation of their efforts. If you needed to get a degree to play chess there would probably be way more women involved.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Feb 2020 21:41:54 No.11352588 Report

Quoted By:

>>11352085
>interest with chess is correlated with higher chess skill
>women just aren't as interested
I understand the above, but it seems to fail at answering the deeper question: "do men and women have the same potential for chess skill?".

Apologies if I've missed the point of this post, and apologies if I'm unnecessarily kicking the can down the road to questions of human/ai augmentation etc.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Feb 2020 23:54:04 No.11352933 Report

Quoted By: >>11353783

>>11347439
It's not a team game. All it should take is ONE very high skilled woman chess player to reach the top.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 01 Feb 2020 23:57:50 No.11352944 Report

Quoted By:

>>11352578
doctors need to have plenty of confidence, even more so with successful women surgeons which do exist (unlike dominant female chess players)

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 02 Feb 2020 01:54:13 No.11353184 Report

Quoted By:

>>11352567
It's from the Republic I cant remember the specific page, but when they are discussing the role of women in the state. If you read it you should remember it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 02 Feb 2020 02:02:45 No.11353203 Report

Quoted By: >>11353787

>>11347439
there would be at least 1 woman in the top 10 if they could compete with the best of the best. that being said, there are likely thousands of women that would annihilate me at chess cause I suck at it. So they're good enough to beat the masses, but they can't quite reach the pinnacle.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 02 Feb 2020 02:05:59 No.11353212 Report

Quoted By:

>>11347682
>and was once ranked 8th best player in the world
this is the only thing that matters. has a woman ever been top 5? top 3?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 02 Feb 2020 02:26:34 No.11353258 Report

Quoted By:

>>11347637
>Everyone agrees that Communism is humanity's future

Lol explain why this is obviously false. Communism can take advantage of all the shit capitalism produces and be more efficient because of larger scale organization and avoiding the redundancy of having corporations competing against each other while having to break up tendencies to form monopolies. Russia grew way more under socialism than capitalism.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 02 Feb 2020 08:04:07 No.11353783 Report

Quoted By:

>>11352933

Judith Polgar

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 02 Feb 2020 08:05:09 No.11353787 Report

Quoted By:

>>11353203

Judith Polgar

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 02 Feb 2020 08:13:17 No.11353798 Report

Quoted By:

http://billwall.phpwebhosting.com/articles/Black%20chess%20players.htm

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 02 Feb 2020 09:17:36 No.11353879 Report

Quoted By:

>>11347439
>the reason for there being less women in the top ranks is due to less women playing chess, compared to men
While this might explain things at the qualitative level, it does not explain why men are disproportionately represented at the top ranks compared to participation rates.
This also begs the question: if the skilled women aren't in this particular field, what fields are they in?
Computer science? No.
Mathematics? No.
Physics? No.
Video games? No.
Wall street? No.
Where are all of the intellectually gifted women hiding?

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