/sci/ - Science & Math » Thread #11127906

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Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 15:27:11 2019 No.11127906 View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>11127907 >>11127910 >>11127928 >>11127931 >>11128112 >>11128124 >>11128684 >>11128796 >>11128816 >>11128866 >>11129213 >>11129247 >>11129415 >>11130067 >>11130068 >>11130114 >>11132637 >>11134201

Why is gender dysphoria not considered a delusion anymore?
If gender dysphoria is not a illness then why is surgical transitioning depicted as a "treatment?
What is the ethical reasoning behind allowing mutilation of transgenders based on "want"?
We wouldn't allow a surgeon to remove a healthy limb or an eye then why removing healthy reproductive organs is allowed?

This is not a troll question, I'm legit interested about what is the scientific basis behind these things.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 15:28:36 No.11127907 Report

Quoted By:

>>11127906
>what is the scientific basis behind these things.
There is none

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 15:28:57 No.11127910 Report

Quoted By: >>11127922

>>11127906
>scientific basis of psychiatry
there is none. it is a practice that is designed to improve the mental welfare of people. while bottom surgery and drugs for kids might be a bad idea, calling your friend by the pronouns they prefer is an easy way to not cause pain.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 15:36:35 No.11127921 Report

Quoted By: >>11128866

We all know why.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 15:36:49 No.11127922 Report

Quoted By: >>11127924 >>11128136

>>11127910
Last time psychiatric issues were treated through surgery it was with lobotomy.

>while bottom surgery and drugs for kids might be a bad idea
And yet they are massively offered in western english speaking countries.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 15:38:40 No.11127924 Report

Quoted By:

>>11127922
>Last time psychiatric issues were treated through surgery it was with lobotomy.
good thing my post agrees that surgery is barbaric
>And yet they are massively offered in western english speaking countries.
this is what you believe from spending all day on the internet. it is not as widespread as you think. I disagree with it, anyway.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 15:40:22 No.11127928 Report

Quoted By:

>>11127906
Gender Identity disorder was renamed in 2013 to Gender Dysphoria. It is defined in DSM-5 as the personal stress someone experiences regarding their gender and birth sex.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 15:40:32 No.11127930 Report

Quoted By: >>11127939

The majority of trans people think it is a delusion, being trans is a mental illness, and the treatment is hormones and surgery.
However, holding this opinion now gets you banned from many popular trans communities for being "truscum". I don't know why.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 15:40:46 No.11127931 Report

Quoted By: >>11127974 >>11129215

>>11127906
The western world has been set on an aggressive enforced dysgenics policy.

Therefore the more retarded, the more dysfunctional, the more disabled, the more infertile, the more mentally ill, the more immoral... The more is worshiped among society.
Only an authoritarian enforced eugenics rule can save this dumpster in fire.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 15:46:14 No.11127939 Report

Quoted By:

>>11127930
most transpeople do not get surgery

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 15:59:20 No.11127959 Report

Quoted By: >>11128841

It's not delusion, it's dissociation. It should stop being treated with antipsychotics and use anti-dissociatives.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 16:07:41 No.11127974 Report

Quoted By:

>>11127931
>t. bootlicker

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 17:13:56 No.11128112 Report

Quoted By: >>11128133 >>11128145 >>11131063

>>11127906
Why do people love to argue about things without learning anything about them?

Gender dysphoria is a mental illness, there's nothing controversial about that. Gender nonconformity (like transgenderism) isn't seen as a mental illness by doctors until there is a clinically significant amount of distress, at which point therapy is used. If therapy doesn't help then gender reassignment surgery is sometimes used since it often helps.
You probably have bought into the endless /pol/ strawmans about transgenderism but you should really know better than to trust the lowest IQ board on 4chomp. They'll believe in literally anything as long as it supports their worldview, regardless of evidence or reality.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 17:21:14 No.11128122 Report

Quoted By: >>11130115

Progressivism needs to always have something they're progressing towards. They were built up for a long battle to legalize homosexual marriage. They won that battle rather quickly so they needed something else to progress towards and tranny identity was an easy switch from gay marriage. Progressivism doesn't care about science, it only cares about moving "forward" where they get to define what constitutes moving forward.
There is no scientific basis for declassification of gender dysphoria as a mental illness. It is strictly a case of progressive political will that it has been classified as normal.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 17:21:17 No.11128124 Report

Quoted By: >>11128147

>>11127906
Communism is dead, it's not anyones obligation to treat diseases that don't threaten life imminently. Medicine is a service, you have an issue, you pay for the expertise. You want a job done, you pay the surgeon to do it. You think you're a faggot and feel bad about it, the doctor says you 'feel bad because of your gender' in greek and tells you some people feel better by cutting their dicks off. You think that's a good idea so you pay him to do it, he tells you shit may go wrong and you insist, so there you have it.

What is the ethical issue you see here? Why is it wrong giving people the service they want and are willing to pay for? Who the fuck do you think you are?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 17:27:19 No.11128133 Report

Quoted By: >>11128151 >>11128254 >>11128808

>>11128112
>often helps
What is the suicide rate from those who undergo gender reassignment surgery versus those who do not?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 17:28:28 No.11128136 Report

Quoted By:

>>11127922
>And yet they are massively offered in western english speaking countries
Your service as a medic is to offer alternatives and explain risks, it is the patient's responsibility to accept or deny them willingly. The only exception may be virulent infectious diseases, pregnancy and childhood welfare which may be regulated by law. The doctors are reserved the right to offer those treatments they deem ethical, and as such, almost nobody will offer you lobotomy, some may be against ECT, and likewise, where permitted, some will not offer you abortion.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 17:32:12 No.11128145 Report

Quoted By: >>11128169 >>11134049

>>11128112
Umm, sweatie, Gender dysphoria is not a disease since this year. Science marches on, faggot.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 17:33:02 No.11128147 Report

Quoted By: >>11128152 >>11128833

>>11128124
>What is the ethical issue you see here? Why is it wrong giving people the service they want and are willing to pay for? Who the fuck do you think you are?

So should doctors practice euthanasia on young healthy people too?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 17:35:26 No.11128151 Report

Quoted By: >>11129300

>>11128133
I'm not sure but I'm sure you've got some reliable graph some /pol/ack made to show us all. In the meantime check out these studies from actual doctors:
https://jaacap.org/article/S0890-8567(09)60397-X/fulltext
https://www.jsm.jsexmed.org/article/S1743-6095(15)33369-5/fulltext
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023%2FA%3A1024086814364

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 17:35:33 No.11128152 Report

Quoted By: >>11130414

>>11128147
Does law allow it? Does the doctor have no ethical qualms with the treatment? Does the patient accept knowing the risks?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 17:45:52 No.11128169 Report

Quoted By: >>11128237

>>11128145
Source?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 18:08:10 No.11128237 Report

Quoted By: >>11128262

>>11128169
https://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/94/11/16-021116/en/

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 18:16:37 No.11128254 Report

Quoted By: >>11128462 >>11128812 >>11129263 >>11129300 >>11132232 >>11132502

>>11128133
Virtually always helps
>https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/

>We conducted a systematic literature review of all peer-reviewed articles published in English between 1991 and June 2017 that assess the effect of gender transition on transgender well-being. We identified 56 studies that consist of primary research on this topic, of which 52 (93%) found that gender transition improves the overall well-being of transgender people, while 4 (7%) report mixed or null findings. We found no studies concluding that gender transition causes overall harm. As an added resource, we separately include 17 additional studies that consist of literature reviews and practitioner guidelines.

with results like this it's completely unethical to deny access to gender reassignment.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 18:22:51 No.11128262 Report

Quoted By:

>>11128237
That article doesn't support what Anon said, moving gender dysphoria to a new category in ICD-11 still treats it as a disease.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 19:49:10 No.11128462 Report

Quoted By: >>11128587 >>11128825 >>11129101

>>11128254
>Going from a human who looks normal to one who is in the uncanny valley improves self image
Almost every tranny looks like a tranny. If you keep that shit to yourself, then you can pass as a normie (which is a huge benefit), and play out your fantasies online or in roleplay. Cross dressers and RPers have that shit figured out.
Doing HRT and surgery might make these people report that they feel better, but is it actually improving their life? The weird looks, the visible awkwardness in anyone who interacts with you, the amused whispers, the total inability of most people to consistently get the pronouns right. Is it really worth it? In the end, you still don't have the body you want, your sex organs are still not right, and your ability to find your desired type of partner has probably gone down.
If we could just body swap people Altered Carbon style, I'd be all for people getting what they want. HRT and surgery just feels gruesome though.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 20:30:58 No.11128587 Report

Quoted By: >>11128654 >>11128762 >>11130253

>>11128462
Cool anecdotal evidence, the data is absolutely clear, transitioning improves the overall well being in 97% while virtually never causing overall harm. Denying a person an effective treatment based on your feelings is utterly unethical.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 21:11:03 No.11128654 Report

Quoted By: >>11128656

>>11128587
These people are fucked in the head to begin with. Do you really believe their opinions are good data? Would you allow a retard or an incontinent to tell you whether or not they were healthy?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 21:11:27 No.11128656 Report

Quoted By: >>11128753

>>11128654
So you decide if a person is happy or not?

willowo !!WLiEhST7Trn

willowo !!WLiEhST7Trn Fri 08 Nov 2019 21:20:25 No.11128684 Report

Quoted By:

>>11127906
>what is scientific reason for a psychoanalytic question
the two fields aren't comparable.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 21:45:15 No.11128753 Report

Quoted By: >>11128764

>>11128656
People with properly functioning minds and bodies do, yes.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 21:49:07 No.11128762 Report

Quoted By: >>11128775 >>11128786 >>11128801 >>11132502

>>11128587
>transitioning improves the overall well being
If this was true then there'd be no reason to bitch about fair treatment and whatever. People still feel like shit after transitioning.
>the data is absolutely clear,
The data is absolutely trash and the methodology of that meta study is extremely questionable. Asking people if they're happy with something is not a good way to tell if there was an objective improvement. Ask an audiophile if their $500 hdmi cable sounds better and they'll say yes. The study you linked specifically avoided including studies where physical health is discussed, as if transition failures don't happen.
>Cool anecdotal evidence
I just avoid the sunshine and sprinkles view of reassignment surgery. Like I said, if you could just magic a person into a different body, that would be awesome. The reality is transitioning with hormones and surgery yields poor to moderate results with a large amount of effort. "Passing" is a very serious issue, and once you've started it's very difficult to go back.
>Cool anecdotal evidence
*wheels in the classic Sweden study*: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/
Non-academic, but makes some reasonable points: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-human-beast/201803/the-gender-reassignment-controversy

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 21:50:00 No.11128764 Report

Quoted By: >>11128775

>>11128753
So who determines what is a properly functioning mind and body? I think if you asked virtually any doctor, researcher or average person on the street if someone who posts regularly on /pol/ has a functioning mind they would all agree no. Your position then lets us do literally anything we want to /pol/ posters if we think it will make them closer to what WE think is healthy. Do you agree this is completely valid and really should be done?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 21:56:11 No.11128775 Report

Quoted By: >>11128943

>>11128762
Did not mean to quote the cool evidence twice.

>>11128764
Not him, but yes. People who frequently post crazy shit on /pol/ should be forcibly subjected to psychological evaluation and treatment. People who say shit like "blacks and jews should be killed" with zero irony should not be treated like normal citizens of a productive society. At the very least, their ability to buy guns and other dangerous shit should be revoked.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 22:01:13 No.11128786 Report

Quoted By: >>11129300 >>11130027

>>11128762
>If this was true then there'd be no reason to bitch about fair treatment and whatever. People still feel like shit after transitioning.
people are still treated like shit, there's a very important distinction, they're still happier though

>Asking people if they're happy with something is not a good way to tell if there was an objective improvement.
Please show me your happiness equation, that performs equally well on all humans.
in all seriousness, I'm not sure why I'm trying to argue with someone who doesn't understand the concept of subjectivity.

>*wheels in the classic Sweden study*: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

>Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population.
>than the general population.

utterly meaningless try again.

>Non-academic, but makes some reasonable points:
no kidding it's not academic, it's completely refuted by the actual studies referenced previously

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 22:04:05 No.11128796 Report

Quoted By:

>>11127906
Sadly, it's purely political

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 22:05:59 No.11128801 Report

Quoted By: >>11129300 >>11130035 >>11130049

>>11128762
Glad you linked the Sweden study as it gives me an opportunity to link this interview by the author, about exactly what you're doing right now.
>https://www.transadvocate.com/fact-check-study-shows-transition-makes-trans-people-suicidal_n_15483.htm

>Dhejne: The aim of trans medical interventions is to bring a trans person’s body more in line with their gender identity, resulting in the measurable diminishment of their gender dysphoria. However trans people as a group also experience significant social oppression in the form of bullying, abuse, rape and hate crimes. Medical transition alone won’t resolve the effects of crushing social oppression: social anxiety, depression and posttraumatic stress.

What we’ve found is that treatment models which ignore the effect of cultural oppression and outright hate aren’t enough. We need to understand that our treatment models must be responsive to not only gender dysphoria, but the effects of anti-trans hate as well. That’s what improved care means.

>Williams: Would you please comment on the below examples of the way your work is being used and represented within the media:

>Dhejne: People who misuse the study always omit the fact that the study clearly states that it is not an evaluation of gender dysphoria treatment. If we look at the literature, we find that several recent studies conclude that WPATH Standards of Care compliant treatment decrease gender dysphoria and improves mental health.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 22:10:17 No.11128808 Report

Quoted By: >>11128812

>>11128133
It's unchanged.
The argument from the left is that children must be transitioned earlier, before puberty.
The problem with this is that there is not enough penile material to make a frankenvagina.
You see how crazy this is?
Give it about 20 years when the lawsuits start coming in from these kids who have had their lives destroyed in the name of an insane political agenda. These kids sometimes just grow up to be gay, or just normal.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 22:11:55 No.11128812 Report

Quoted By: >>11130425

>>11128808
whoa friend you got a citation for that statement?
It seems to directly contradict the studies referenced here >>11128254

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 22:12:38 No.11128816 Report

Quoted By:

>>11127906
the bias isn't scientific, it's psychological or societal, just as all biases are

science is only a tool, but it's people who use tools

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 22:16:58 No.11128825 Report

Quoted By:

>>11128462
>Almost every tranny looks like a tranny.
What you mean to say is almost every tranny that doesn't pass enough for you to notice looks like a tranny. The rest you just think are cis. Unless you do an actual study which minimizes biases somehow you won't ever have any way of knowing what the proportions are.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 22:18:53 No.11128829 Report

Quoted By: >>11128840

1. Suicide Rates Among Transgenders Do Not Decrease Thanks to Sex-Change Surgery. The suicide rates among transgenders do not drop after surgery. 41 percent of transgender people attempt suicide sometime in their life; just 4.6 percent of the rest of the population does. The suicide rate among transgender people who say they are never identified as transgender is still 46 percent. 45 percent of transgender people who undergo hormone therapy attempt suicide

2. Most Children Grow Out Of Transgender Feelings. Dr. Paul McHugh, former head of psychiatry at Johns Hopkins University, finds that 70 to 80 percent of all children with transgender feelings grow out of it. This is important because the media has already told parents that children confused about their sex should consider whether they are transgender.

3. Transgender Regret Is Very Real.
The study commissioned by The Guardian of the UK in 2004 reviewed 100 studies and found 20 percent regret. Consider the findings of a 2011 Swedish study (not the study Ms. Costello used) published seven years after the 2004 UK review. It looked at mortality and morbidity after gender reassignment surgery and found that people who changed genders had a higher risk of suicide. In this study, all the sex-reassigned persons in Sweden from 1973–2003 (191 male-to-females, 133 female-to-males) were compared to a comparable random control group. The sex-reassigned persons had substantially higher rates of death from cardiovascular disease and suicide, and substantially higher rates of attempted suicide….Gender surgery is not effective treatment for depression, anxiety or mental disorders.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 22:20:10 No.11128833 Report

Quoted By:

>>11128147
YES

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 22:22:41 No.11128840 Report

Quoted By:

>>11128829
well are you going to provide citations or should we just trust you?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 22:22:41 No.11128841 Report

Quoted By:

>>11127959
>anti-dissociatives
Such us? Name one approved anti-dissociative shrinks can prescribe

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 22:32:29 No.11128866 Report

Quoted By: >>11128880 >>11128888 >>11132295

>>11127906
>>11127921
It's really amazing how this became such a big issue
Trans are only 0.6% of the population yet the media wants them in your face 24/7
If TransGender can be taken out of the DSM, then so should the TransLifers commonly known as suicidal depression.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 22:38:18 No.11128880 Report

Quoted By: >>11129311 >>11129325

>>11128866
They're just the new scapegoat for conservatives.
So their base has somebody to hate to distract from how they're destroying the nation for the highest bidder.
You'll notice all these bait threads are started by /pol/tards.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 22:40:22 No.11128888 Report

Quoted By: >>11132254

>>11128866
It's 100% political
If you're really interest then take a look at Douglas Murray's new book.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 08 Nov 2019 23:04:55 No.11128943 Report

Quoted By:

>>11128775
based sane anon

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 09 Nov 2019 00:18:30 No.11129101 Report

Quoted By:

>>11128462
Truly spoken like someone with very little understanding of other people. Your shame and insecurities about fitting in are showing.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 09 Nov 2019 01:18:01 No.11129213 Report

Quoted By:

>>11127906
>Why is gender dysphoria not considered a delusion anymore?
Politics.
>If gender dysphoria is not a illness then why is surgical transitioning depicted as a "treatment?
Money and politics.
>What is the ethical reasoning behind allowing mutilation of transgenders based on "want"?
It's unethical as fuck. Trannies are obviously not capable of making their own decisions. But it's justified via identity/make believe ideology.
>We wouldn't allow a surgeon to remove a healthy limb or an eye then why removing healthy reproductive organs is allowed?
Oh you just wait, it'll come eventually.

TL;DR
Jews

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 09 Nov 2019 01:21:26 No.11129215 Report

Quoted By: >>11129240

>>11127931
Why would the West willingly engage in this?

>inb4 da joos
404 argument not found

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 09 Nov 2019 01:30:34 No.11129240 Report

Quoted By:

>>11129215
Uhhh Anon it IS the Jews, it says so in this book from 1903 Russia!

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 09 Nov 2019 01:33:05 No.11129247 Report

Quoted By: >>11131040

>>11127906
>This is not a troll question, I'm legit interested about what is the scientific basis behind these things.
The hell you aren't. You're a board tourist from >>>/pol/ and need to go back there.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 09 Nov 2019 01:41:08 No.11129263 Report

Quoted By: >>11129296 >>11133216

>>11128254
Ah yes, I'm sure a domain name containing the buzzword (in)equality twice will give me unbiased and objective science. Let me just trust this shady meta-analysis without looking into the studies themselves.

>mostly cross-sectional
>only few longitudinal studies with insufficiently long timeframe
>first study I click on ends with "Negative self-image, according to SASB, predicted a negative outcome, whereas DMT variables were not correlated to outcome."
>second one I click on ends with "Contrary to expectations, victimization did not reach significance as an independent risk factor of depression"

Into the trash it goes. Come back when they found consistent improvement after 10 years of regular dilation.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 09 Nov 2019 01:43:16 No.11129273 Report

Quoted By:

kike doctors and kike psychologists mainstream the mentally ill to get shekels

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 09 Nov 2019 01:50:02 No.11129296 Report

Quoted By: >>11129315

>>11129263
What would be a sufficiently long timeframe for you?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 09 Nov 2019 01:50:38 No.11129300 Report

Quoted By:

>>11128151
>>11128254
>>11128786
>>11128801
Found the tranny

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 09 Nov 2019 01:54:03 No.11129311 Report

Quoted By: >>11129321

>>11128880
>conservatives
Are you shitting me? 99% of all discussion about transgender issues is started and perpetuated by progressives. Conservatives wouldn't even know about their existence if it wasn't for progressives blatantly trying to brainwash little kids into cutting their dicks off.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 09 Nov 2019 01:55:25 No.11129315 Report

Quoted By: >>11129399

>>11129296
The answer is in the post you replied to.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 09 Nov 2019 01:56:13 No.11129321 Report

Quoted By: >>11129340

>>11129311
You don't actually talk to people in real life do you?
Virtually every conversation I've ever had about trans people has been started by conservatives bashing them for fun. In general they just want to be left alone.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 09 Nov 2019 01:57:39 No.11129325 Report

Quoted By: >>11129408

>>11128880
It's all a decades-old farce to distract the people from the real issues.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 09 Nov 2019 02:02:04 No.11129340 Report

Quoted By:

>>11129321
>trust my anecdotes
I talk to a lot of people and the topic virtually never comes up. I especially never witnessed anyone ever "bashing them for fun".
On the other hand, we have every liberal news outlet under the sun talking about transgenderism on a regular basis.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 09 Nov 2019 02:22:08 No.11129399 Report

Quoted By: >>11129508 >>11132348

>>11129315
>Cornell is an evil partisan organization
OK boomer
>Let me just trust this shady meta-analysis without looking into the studies themselves.
yes please for the love of god actually read the studies!
you might actually learn something.

>into the trash it goes. Come back when they found consistent improvement after 10 years of regular dilation.

De Cuypere, G., Elaut, E., Heylens, G., Maele, G. V., Selvaggi, G., et al. (2006).
Ruppin, U. & Pfäfflin, F. Arch Sex Behav (2015)

Vujovic S, Popovic S, Sbutega-Milosevic G, Djordjevic M, and Gooren L. Transsexualism in Serbia: A twenty-year follow-up study.

so like all these which you ignored for some reason?
There's plenty more I just skimmed the Cornell page.
Basically you've provided absolutely no evidence and I've provided a shit ton, please concede your hate has nothing to do with science or rationality, and you just hate trans people. I'll accept that, I know there's no treatment for being a horrible person.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 09 Nov 2019 02:28:44 No.11129408 Report

Quoted By: >>11129429

>>11129325
this, if marx could see how his ideology has been perverted he would be rolling in his grave.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 09 Nov 2019 02:31:06 No.11129415 Report

Quoted By:

>>11127906
>Why is gender dysphoria not considered a delusion anymore?

Gender dysphoria is the discomfort experienced by some who perceive a disconnect between their gender identity and their appearance. It is cured by removing that disconnect by either aligning yourself more along the lines of what is desired or changing your desires. Not all mTfs experience dysphoria from their penis. It’s just a lady penis now.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 09 Nov 2019 02:39:54 No.11129429 Report

Quoted By:

>>11129408
Rather than admit that nobody really much likes socialism, the marxists decided that the working class let them down

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 09 Nov 2019 03:21:16 No.11129508 Report

Quoted By:

>>11129399
Easy there faggot, no reason to get personal and make baseless assumptions motivated by your own biases.
I admit defeat, I skimmed the studies you pointed out and they seem valid and fulfilling my criteria. Excuse my initial selection bias and subsequent rejection of the literature review and I'll excuse your rudeness.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 09 Nov 2019 07:27:55 No.11130027 Report

Quoted By: >>11130035

>>11128786
>they're still happier though
WRONG. Questionnaires are notoriously awful at getting a good answer from people. Anyone who has emotionally invested themselves in a life change is going to feel bias towards their decision.
>Please show me your happiness equation
Are they holding a stable career? Are they financially secure? Do they have more support from family and friends? Do they no longer have a negative self image? That one is important. They might say their self image has "improved" because they feel it needs to have, without actually believing it. A cessation of negative self image is the correct indicator, not a reduction. Otherwise you're essentially reading a placebo effect.
>utterly meaningless try again
Not even close. If this shit was really effective, then you'd see improvements so good it couldn't possibly be contested. I see surgical reassignment like I see over prescribed antidepressants and over diagnosed ADHD: Drastic shit done in a shotgun manner with dubious overall results. Instead of cherry picking what you wanted to hear, you should have read the whole study.
>A recent systematic review and meta-analysis concluded that approximately 80% reported subjective improvement in terms of gender dysphoria, quality of life, and psychological symptoms, but also that there are studies reporting high psychiatric morbidity and suicide rates after sex reassignment. The authors concluded though that the evidence base for sex reassignment “is of very low quality due to the serious methodological limitations of included studies.”
The correct answer to the surgical reassignment question is we actually have no fucking idea if it will work for a given person. It's an enormous change at great expense of resources and time for the patient, and we actually don't know when it will be beneficial.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 09 Nov 2019 07:34:07 No.11130035 Report

Quoted By: >>11130090

>>11130027
Or you could actually read the studies, where all these questions and more are answered.
Or you could intentionally remain ignorant so you can attempt to justify your hate, that sounds like more fun huh?

>Not even close. If this shit was really effective, then you'd see improvements so good it couldn't possibly be contested.
like the results of the provided studies?
>hat you wanted to hear, you should have read the whole study.

The author was pretty clear about the results. >>11128801

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 09 Nov 2019 07:39:49 No.11130049 Report

Quoted By: >>11130054

>>11128801
>cultural oppression
In Sweden. The hotbed for oppression. Basically Nazis, the Swedish.
>Medical transition alone won’t resolve...
Medical transition will make you stick out like absolute crazy. Spotting a tranny is generally trivial. Very few "pass". So taking HRT and getting surgery is actually likely to get you bullied more.
>If we look at the literature
Yes, lets...
>All the studies were observational and most lacked controls.
>Very low quality evidence suggests that sex reassignment that includes hormonal interventions in individuals with GID likely improves gender dysphoria, psychological functioning and comorbidities, sexual function and overall quality of life.
If this shit was evidence for a new drug to treat nearly anything else, the FDA would fucking laugh.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 09 Nov 2019 07:44:39 No.11130054 Report

Quoted By: >>11130090 >>11133207

>>11130049
>In Sweden. The hotbed for oppression. Basically Nazis, the Swedish.
You're starting to realize just how badly trans individuals are treated.
>Medical transition will make you stick out like absolute crazy. Spotting a tranny is generally trivial. Very few "pass". So taking HRT and getting surgery is actually likely to get you bullied more.
Glad you're starting to realize where the problem lies. By all means keep blaming the victims.

>>All the studies were observational and most lacked controls.
>Very low quality evidence suggests that sex reassignment that includes hormonal interventions in individuals with GID likely improves gender dysphoria, psychological functioning and comorbidities, sexual function and overall quality of life.
If this shit was evidence for a new drug to treat nearly anything else, the FDA would fucking laugh.

yes most studies lacked identical twins who did not transition, your attempts to act like you know anything about how studies involving mental health and well being are utterly hilarious. Keep trying to deny the evidence because you have none of your own.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 09 Nov 2019 08:00:04 No.11130067 Report

Quoted By: >>11132283

>>11127906
>Why would modern medicine create a new multi-million dollar industry?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 09 Nov 2019 08:04:16 No.11130068 Report

Quoted By:

>>11127906
The same reason mental retardation bar was set to 70 iq from 85 iq. It's to destigmatize the label associated with this disease of the mind. Scientists are trying to keep trannies from killing themselves.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 09 Nov 2019 08:29:34 No.11130090 Report

Quoted By:

>>11130035
I've read the studies. Calling me a bigot because I don't believe in pushing mentally fragile people down a dangerous path shows how completely stone headed you are.
>The author was pretty clear about the results.
The author put a mile of caveats in his study, which people justly called out. Pretending others are simply misusing his study by citing large and literal blocks of text from it is some next level damage control.

>>11130054
>how badly trans individuals are treated.
They're treated less poorly than schizophrenics, and unlike schizos (who sometimes have uncontrollable episodes even when medicated), all you need to do as a tranny is act like a normal person in public, and do your private shit in private. Literally everyone does this to some extent. If you're physically incapable of doing this, then you have a problem distinct from the dysphoria.
But of course every time someone suggests CBT and separate treatment of different issues instead of magic fix drugs and surgery, it's called "blaming the victims".
>studies involving mental health
Yeah. They're about as useful as nutrition studies. I get that good evidence in psych is not easy, but just accepting that and saying we should make huge decisions and suggest invasive surgery on very weak evidence is why psych is treated like a joke field.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 09 Nov 2019 08:50:24 No.11130114 Report

Quoted By:

>>11127906
>Why is gender dysphoria not considered a delusion anymore?
I think it will be again.

>If gender dysphoria is not a illness then why is surgical transitioning depicted as a "treatment?
The dysphoria is not considered the illness. It's a symptom of the underlying malformation of having the wrong body.

I think it's bullshit. I think gender dysphoria is a mental illness that should be treated with psych therapy.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 09 Nov 2019 08:52:37 No.11130115 Report

Quoted By:

>>11128122
100%

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 09 Nov 2019 10:47:19 No.11130253 Report

Quoted By:

>>11128587
Overall well being is not empirical. Post the suicide rate or fuck off tranny

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 09 Nov 2019 13:24:26 No.11130414 Report

Quoted By: >>11131006

>>11128152
What is the ethical issue you see here? Why is it wrong giving people the service they want and are willing to pay for? Who the fuck do you think you are?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 09 Nov 2019 13:30:53 No.11130425 Report

Quoted By: >>11131209

>>11128812
Nobody cares about your cherrypicked studies trannie

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 09 Nov 2019 17:50:22 No.11131006 Report

Quoted By:

>>11130414

I have nothing against mature adults deciding to undergo transition.

I have issues with mentally vulnerable adults and children being forced to accept life altering drugs and surgeries the same way I disagree with electroshock, lobotomies, and overprescription of ADHD medication and anti-depressants for mentally vilnerable adults and children.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 09 Nov 2019 18:05:42 No.11131040 Report

Quoted By: >>11132512

>>11129247
>le /pol/ scapegoat
I am not and fuck you to doubt about my sincerity, the discussion has been relatively interesting up to now.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 09 Nov 2019 18:12:50 No.11131063 Report

Quoted By: >>11131374

>>11128112
show me the page of the DSM-V that talks about gender disphoria?? The things you have posted are simply false.
GD and gender-nonconformity (whatever that is?) are not considered mental illnesses in today's psychiatry.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 09 Nov 2019 19:24:05 No.11131209 Report

Quoted By:

>>11130425
cherrypicked implies the data saying otherwise is plentiful, please provide it.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 09 Nov 2019 20:59:29 No.11131374 Report

Quoted By:

>>11131063
Ok here it is. Gender nonconformity is when a person's biological sex is not the same as their gender identity, in case you actually cared.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 10 Nov 2019 02:43:13 No.11132232 Report

Quoted By:

>>11128254
>We found no studies concluding that gender transition causes overall harm.
>overall harm
What's "overall harm"? You'd think getting your dick+balls lopped off is harmful, but I don't know how they weigh that against a more positive self image.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 10 Nov 2019 02:53:24 No.11132254 Report

Quoted By:

>>11128888
>Douglas Murray
>British conservative author, journalist and political commentator

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 10 Nov 2019 03:07:16 No.11132283 Report

Quoted By:

>>11130067
This,
Follow the Jew money, soon more pills for tranny problems will appear.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 10 Nov 2019 03:14:20 No.11132295 Report

Quoted By:

>>11128866
media wants money

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 10 Nov 2019 03:34:31 No.11132348 Report

Quoted By: >>11132395

>>11129399
Where the fuck can I read these articles? Most sources are behind a paywall or some bullshit like that. The free tools I know gave no results

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 10 Nov 2019 03:37:06 No.11132355 Report

Quoted By:

gender dysphoria threads are consigned to /pol/
once they are resolved politically
then and only then can these considerations be considered scientifically
i fully expect this not to happen for the next at least two decades
so don't be posting in here for the next at least two decades, is what i guess i'm saying

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 10 Nov 2019 03:53:34 No.11132395 Report

Quoted By:

>>11132348
Ok, I managed to do it. Nevermind.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 10 Nov 2019 04:58:55 No.11132502 Report

Quoted By: >>11132511 >>11132645

I looked at most of the researches exposed here and they often deal with people seeking clinical help. However, I was wondering if that is a good indicator of the general population of people who ever experience some form of dysphoria in their lives.
How can we be sure that hormone therapy and sex reassignment surgery is the most adequate treatment for a patient when the severity of the dysphoria is unknown? It seems like a reasonable method for extreme cases, but when is a case extreme enough?
I question this because I believe that this form of relief is being pushed more and more indiscriminately, and I worry that it might lead to the treatment being used in cases where it shouldn't. (but even if it isn't, my question still stands mostly for curiosity sake)

>>11128254
I think it's still relevant to take care in making the statements you did because the treatment might not be the actual best. Even if it usually betters the condition, if the overall life quality isn't increased beyond a certain threshold it is probably better to seek alternative treatments. Which is why I think >>11128762 makes an important point: If the suicide rate is still high after the treatment, it means the SRS is not enough. If all SRS does is numbing the pain then there should be made an effort for an actual treatment to be found (even if it also has SRS in its procedures).

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 10 Nov 2019 05:09:06 No.11132511 Report

Quoted By:

>>11132502

>modern medicine overprescribes everything from painkillers, to anti-depressants, to ADHD meds, to c-sections
>somehow, transition therapy is immune to this

The modern left.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 10 Nov 2019 05:13:25 No.11132512 Report

Quoted By: >>11132627 >>11133911

>>11131040
No FUCK YOU because this thread is a lightning rod for /pol/fags and being a /pol/fag yourself you goddamned well know that's true and that's why you made this thread. You fuckers want to infiltrate every board on 4chan one way or another and use it for your right-wing agenda. Fuck the fuck off and GO BACK TO YOUR CONTAINMENT BOARD.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 10 Nov 2019 06:24:05 No.11132627 Report

Quoted By:

>>11132512
This is not a /pol/ thread. The OP was made in good faith, and many good points have been made regarding the true efficacy of surgery. The evidence is actually pretty damn poor, yet it's being marketed as a basically guaranteed solution. That's wrong.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 10 Nov 2019 06:33:57 No.11132637 Report

Quoted By:

>>11127906

Is there any difference between people who identify as a different gender, and people who identify as a different race like Rachel Dolezal? After all, both are social constructs according to liberals

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 10 Nov 2019 06:38:54 No.11132645 Report

Quoted By:

>>11132502
This is exactly my worry, as I've said previously itt. After seeing the shit that happened with antibiotics, ADHD diagnosis (a catastrophe I was personally impacted by, being incorrectly medicated for years of my childhood), and antidepressants, I'm EXTREMELY skeptical when some meme treatment is getting pushed hard with pretty thin evidence to support widespread use.
But it's like the opposition doesn't care about the garbage track record we've been keeping. Surgery and HRT is probably beneficial for a very small number of transgendered people. Pushing it on children, and people who would be perfectly fine with some basic therapy and lifestyle changes, is disgusting.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 10 Nov 2019 13:30:22 No.11133207 Report

Quoted By: >>11134037

>>11130054
>yes most studies lacked identical twins who did not transition, your attempts to act like you know anything about how studies involving mental health and well being are utterly hilarious. Keep trying to deny the evidence because you have none of your own.
what evidence? The Obama administration (which had enormous pressure to placate the LGBT lobby) concluded there is not sufficient evidence for the ACA to pay for genital surgery to treat anything because genital surgery has no conclusive evidence of being an effective treatment for anything...where those heavily biased experts wrong? Do tell.

https://www.cms.gov/medicare-coverage-database/details/nca-proposed-decision-memo.aspx?NCAId=282
>Based on a thorough review of the clinical evidence available at this time, there is not enough evidence to determine whether gender reassignment surgery improves health outcomes for Medicare beneficiaries with gender dysphoria. There were conflicting (inconsistent) study results – of the best designed studies, some reported benefits while others reported harms. The quality and strength of evidence were low due to the mostly observational study designs with no comparison groups, potential confounding and small sample sizes. Many studies that reported positive outcomes were exploratory type studies (case-series and case-control) with no confirmatory follow-up. Due in part to the generally younger and healthier study participants, the generalizability of the studies to the Medicare population is also unclear. Additional research is needed.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 10 Nov 2019 13:41:10 No.11133216 Report

Quoted By: >>11134014

>>11129263
>second one I click on ends with "Contrary to expectations, victimization did not reach significance as an independent risk factor of depression"
They use a bunch of references and I"m not sure this is in the "2nd" one. I'm compiling a list of peer review that reluctantly states victimization is not a basis for the high rates of depression or poor mental health in trannies; completely destroying the narrative its societies fault for their high suicide rate. Do you happen to remember which source this statement came from?

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 10 Nov 2019 18:17:06 No.11133911 Report

Quoted By:

>>11132512
>NOOOOOO YOU CAN'T DISCUSS TOPICS I DON'T LIKE POL POL POL POL POL POL POL POL POL POL POL POL POL POL POL POL POL POL POL POL POL POL POL

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 10 Nov 2019 18:50:42 No.11133989 Report

Quoted By:

Desu, I just want to be more androgynous

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 10 Nov 2019 18:59:32 No.11134014 Report

Quoted By: >>11134681

>>11133216
Good luck anon, I can't wait for you to post it so I can completely tear it apart within 5 minutes of actually reading your sources.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 10 Nov 2019 19:07:03 No.11134037 Report

Quoted By: >>11134681

>>11133207
>enough evidence to determine whether gender reassignment surgery improves health outcomes for MEDICARE beneficiaries with gender dysphoria.

>The applicability of the results of a study to other populations, settings, treatment regimens and outcomes assessed is known as external validity. Even well-designed and well-conducted trials may not supply the evidence needed if the results of a study are not applicable to the Medicare population. Evidence that provides accurate information about a population or setting not well represented in the Medicare program would be considered but would suffer from limited generalizability.

Remind me again what the defining feature of the medicare population is? The fact you're trying to apply statements specific to the population 65 and older to the rest of the population is utterly nonsensical.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 10 Nov 2019 19:10:06 No.11134049 Report

Quoted By:

>>11128145
sweetie*

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 10 Nov 2019 19:50:20 No.11134201 Report

Quoted By:

>>11127906
Because it turns me on so muCH

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 10 Nov 2019 22:01:03 No.11134681 Report

Quoted By: >>11135006

>>11134014
>Good luck anon, I can't wait for you to post it so I can completely tear it apart within 5 minutes of actually reading your sources.
Pic related is one of them. Please tear it apart. I encourage you to try. Specifically the part underlined in red. Why is this peer reviewed statement false?

>>11134037
>Remind me again what the defining feature of the medicare population is? The fact you're trying to apply statements specific to the population 65 and older to the rest of the population is utterly nonsensical.
Medicaid also applies to people under 65 who are disabled, so obviously they never limit their scope to just post 65. I have no idea why you thought this was an argument. Awkward....

Anyway, it's very cute how little you understand about medical science. Instead of arguing against your 65 years old construct you just invented, I'll pretend it's valid just to put the ball on your court.

So, what about Bruce Jenner? He's 70 years old, older than 65, so your goal post moving does not apply to him. Why did these biased experts reluctantly conclude his genital surgery has no conclusive proof of improving his mental health?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 11 Nov 2019 00:22:50 No.11135006 Report

Quoted By:

>>11134681
He's exactly one case. Are you seriously suggesting Medicare policy should be determined by n=1?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 11 Nov 2019 01:44:03 No.11135189 Report

Quoted By:

Why are so many female doctors single and childless? Will they live their whole life being single? Would they date me?

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