/sci/ - Science & Math » Thread #10853098

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Anonymous Wed 31 Jul 21:25:46 2019 No.10853098 View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>10853126 >>10853145 >>10853147 >>10854793 >>10855067 >>10856010 >>10856052 >>10856579 >>10856600 >>10857123

If free will doesn't exist then what's the difference between a choice made sober and a choice made when you're black out drunk?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 31 Jul 2019 21:29:54 No.10853112 Report

Quoted By:

when we say there is no free will, we are extending beyond the social plane of existence. We are in a way making a "poetic" statement about the nature of this reality we are all conscious of.
On some ontological plane, free will does exist, even deeper and more abstractly it does not.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 31 Jul 2019 21:31:11 No.10853116 Report

Quoted By:

Ethanol in your blood.

What are you getting at?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 31 Jul 2019 21:32:10 No.10853119 Report

Quoted By: >>10854822

If there is no free will, we are (effectively) deterministic systems trying to make the most beneficial choices we can. Alcohol inhibits our ability the make the most beneficial choices

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 31 Jul 2019 21:33:48 No.10853126 Report

Quoted By:

>>10853098
lack of inhibitions, that's all. Being drunk doesnt put thoughts into your head you havnt had sober. It also doesnt make you say things you would never say. It just helps you to do and say things you normally would be more cautious about doing.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 31 Jul 2019 21:44:21 No.10853145 Report

Quoted By: >>10853163 >>10853168

>>10853098
>we have free will
>reality is determined

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 31 Jul 2019 21:45:01 No.10853147 Report

Quoted By:

>>10853098
The difference is simply that when you're sober you're conscious of the choice being made (not by you). Consciousness itself remain unexplained, so that's why it is at least possible that choices are mede independently of consciousness, while consciousness merely "observes" this occurrence passively, while maintaining the illusion that it somehow "belongs" to it, when in reality it doesn't.

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 31 Jul 2019 21:52:59 No.10853163 Report

Quoted By: >>10853168 >>10854732

>>10853145
Compatibilism makes no fucking sense

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 31 Jul 2019 21:54:12 No.10853168 Report

Quoted By:

>>10853163
>>10853145
humans are teleological operators

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Aug 2019 14:07:21 No.10854732 Report

Quoted By: >>10854797 >>10854824

>>10853163
reality is determined but its your decision how to act on it or feel about it

Anonymous

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Anonymous Thu 01 Aug 2019 14:33:57 No.10854793 Report

Quoted By:

>>10853098
Self-awareness isn't free will. It's just self-referencing behavior.
You know how you can point a camera at a TV or computer screen it's hooked up to and create a feedback loop like pic related?
That's basically what self-awareness is like, where the process is taking itself as part of the input for its resulting behavior.
There's nothing anti-deterministic about that. You can have times where you're more self-aware or less self-aware and it just means less of your behavior is being determined by self-referential information.
Similarly, you don't need to believe in free will to recognize a difference between the behavior of your leg kicking when your knee is struck by a reflex hammer vs. the behavior of writing a letter. There are different processes in the brain and different degrees of complexity in how much is going on with the brain when a more involved / non-reflexive behavior is taking place vs. a purely reflexive one.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Aug 2019 14:36:14 No.10854797 Report

Quoted By: >>10854935

>>10854732
>reality is determined but its your decision how to act on it or feel about it
I don't think that makes sense. Your decision how to act on it or feel about it is itself part of reality, so there's not "but..." there.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Aug 2019 14:48:56 No.10854822 Report

Quoted By: >>10855047 >>10855072

>>10853119
>(effectively) deterministic
not really. random does exist in nature.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Aug 2019 14:49:08 No.10854824 Report

Quoted By:

>>10854732
Wouldn't your decision also be determined? If reality is?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Aug 2019 15:48:15 No.10854935 Report

Quoted By: >>10855075

>>10854797
then that might mean the way we act is already determined, but we are still acting on free will

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Aug 2019 16:54:38 No.10855047 Report

Quoted By: >>10855997

>>10854822
Please do prove that

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Aug 2019 17:08:45 No.10855067 Report

Quoted By:

>>10853098
You're more likely to dislike the drunk choice and claim you didn't want it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Aug 2019 17:11:42 No.10855072 Report

Quoted By: >>10855997

>>10854822
No, randomness is just a model applicable to anything, it doesn't exist.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Aug 2019 17:12:46 No.10855075 Report

Quoted By:

>>10854935
>then that might mean the way we act is already determined
Why call it "free will" then?

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Aug 2019 23:55:58 No.10855984 Report

Quoted By: >>10855986

It's determined by not by any conscious entity, more a chain reaction of basic particles just following the laws of physics since their existence. Some omnipotent presence could exist but it'd be way beyond our comprehension and not worth even putting any thought into, there's definitely no bearded man in the sky burning you alive for all of eternity because you masturbated though

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 01 Aug 2019 23:57:14 No.10855986 Report

Quoted By:

>>10855984
But not by* anyway particles include electrical signals and chemicals in the brain. There's no free will but it doesn't matter, it's not a license to be an asshole and shouldn't affect how you live

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Aug 2019 00:00:13 No.10855997 Report

Quoted By: >>10856405 >>10856549

>>10855072
>>10855047
dt between decays of a radioactive atom is random. It has a descriptive time signature that is usually right, but the underlying mechanism is inherently random.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Aug 2019 00:04:58 No.10856010 Report

Quoted By:

>>10853098
Simple, really.
Most decisions you make, why I have a drink in my hand, why my legs are crossed, why I just fucked your mom, these are autonomous reactions of the human form. We do not *need* free will, in truth, it is likely most do not have it. However, this is unrelated to the exertion of the will upon the form. You may have the autonomous desired, say, "fuck bird", but you may realize decide to pull yourself out of it or succumb.
Will is also not necessarily the driving force- see addicts who ruin their lives.

With alcohol, the autonomous forces simply become more powerful- less inhibited, if you will.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Aug 2019 00:22:28 No.10856052 Report

Quoted By:

>>10853098
delete this post you fucking brainlet

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Aug 2019 03:25:23 No.10856405 Report

Quoted By:

>>10855997
It's not "random" unless we are absolutely sure it can never be explained in the future.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Aug 2019 05:14:33 No.10856549 Report

Quoted By:

>>10855997
Quantum mechanics says it's fundamentally deterministic and follows a mathematically precise exponential law, we know exact form of the law. Stochastic model can be applied to deterministic processes, it doesn't mean they aren't deterministic.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Aug 2019 05:38:00 No.10856579 Report

Quoted By:

>>10853098
When you are drunk you brain doesn't calculate and predict deterministic consequences accurately.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Aug 2019 05:48:17 No.10856600 Report

Quoted By:

>>10853098
>if determinism
The illusion is itself an illusion. If it's true, it doesn't matter - everything is supposed to be exactly the way it is, including the confusion about free will, so nothing changes. If it isn't true, it doesn't matter and things carry on as normal. Debating determinism is for literal brainlets, so it isn't something you should be doing unless you want to act like a particularly stupid person.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 02 Aug 2019 12:13:18 No.10857123 Report

Quoted By:

>>10853098

The Spirit bloweth where it listeth.

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