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How data are stored ?

Anonymous Tue 19 Apr 18:15:52 2022 No.14409870 View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>14410309 >>14410316 >>14410360 >>14410386

On a hard disk, data is stored as "0" and "1". But more concretely, how is it stored?

I read that a disc is covered with magnetic particles and that an electromagnet changes the polarity of the particles to "write 1 or 0". But it's half the answer : what "write 1 or 0 "means ?!

Is it just clumsily written to say that 1 = north polarity and 0 = south polarity and that concretely the data is magnetic polarity ?

Or this electroaimant/magnetic particles create a relief for 1 and a flat for 0?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 19 Apr 2022 18:40:12 No.14409927 Report

Quoted By: >>14409982 >>14410683

>What are bits and bytes for 400

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 19 Apr 2022 18:54:57 No.14409982 Report

Quoted By: >>14409999 >>14410431

>>14409927
bytes is 8 bits but my question is concrectly, how is it stored : 0 and 1 is a concept, there is no little circle for "0" or one vertical bar and a little diagonal one for "1" written with ink on a paper.

(and a bit is just the name of the binary system used in informatic, so a bit is either 0 or 1 but also is the information that it can be 0 or 1)

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 19 Apr 2022 18:59:07 No.14409999 Report

Quoted By: >>14410232 >>14410440

>>14409982
Actually i have no idea how ssd's and m2s does this, i only know hdd's and never really cared about the subject anymore

but yea those damn 0 and 1 represents a meaning like 01010101 = uff

Rest is magic

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 19 Apr 2022 19:53:57 No.14410232 Report

Quoted By: >>14410279 >>14410431 >>14410504 >>14410731

>>14409999
That's this "magic" part I was wondering about : most of time, when you say "data" in informatic, information stop (or start) at "0" and "1" because the bit is the smallest form of data. But as I said, 0 and 1 is a concept. How those "1" and "0" are stored, physically, is what I seek.

On ssd, it's stored on "NAND flash" and if I understand it correctly (and I m not sure since I'm not an electrician, just a programmer), those "NAND flash" are transistor, so the intensity of the flow of electricity can be set for those transistor ... and if set, it can be read so let's say no electricity go through, it's 0, electricity can, it's 1.

I know it's complicated but when you search that on internet, it's like saying "how do you write" and it stop at "you write word, wich are mades of letters, on papers" ... but how ?

Okay, I have my papers, I have my letter in head, but how is it applied on papers ? In that case, it's "easy" : with ink or anything that is visible and distinct from the support, you draw a form on that support and that form means something.

But the process of storing those bit is generally just ignored while it's as much interesting as how a bunch of 0 and 1 form a word at the end.

Okay so writing this I finaly found how to ask it properly on internet, my question shouldn't be "how data are stored ?" but "how bit are stored ?"

And I found my answer here (for those also interested) :

https://www.quora.com/How-are-bits-stored-in-computer-memory

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 19 Apr 2022 20:08:06 No.14410279 Report

Quoted By: >>14410731

>>14410232
>How those "1" and "0" are stored
In hdd its ferromagnetic film layers or something like that, like i said i dont know in which kind of "states" those operational parts rest in newer thingies.. never actually even thought of it. just expected everyhing to just work..

Back in the day when everything was more mechanical i was really interested about VHS systems etc, hell i dont even like touchscreens, good mechanical trusty buttons is the only way imo, fuck i would hate to drive a car doing some goddamn music conductor symphony shit, i rather have a physical mechanical steering wheel desu

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 19 Apr 2022 20:19:56 No.14410309 Report

Quoted By: >>14410731

>>14409870
It depends on the particular drive technology. Even within HDDs different models can do this differently, usually with a tradeoff of performance to price&capacity.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 19 Apr 2022 20:22:25 No.14410316 Report

Quoted By: >>14410431 >>14410867

>>14409870
Anon they are not literally 0 and 1. The 0 and 1 can represent just about anything.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 19 Apr 2022 20:35:50 No.14410360 Report

Quoted By: >>14410431 >>14410552 >>14410579 >>14410731 >>14410767

>>14409870
on SSDs data is stored as charges (electrons) in the floating gates of transistors (basically capacitors) https://www.mdpi.com/sensors/sensors-20-03329/article_deploy/html/images/sensors-20-03329-g001-550.jpg

the difference between SSD and RAM is that RAM needs to be continually refreshed, but for floating gate capacitors the charge sticks for a long period of time
>Since the FG is surrounded by highly resistive material, the charge contained in it remains unchanged for long periods of time, nowadays typically longer than 10 years.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 19 Apr 2022 20:43:49 No.14410386 Report

Quoted By: >>14410431 >>14410446 >>14410467 >>14410504 >>14410552

>>14409870
The exact reason why you dont understand it, is because you can not yet fathom how small that data "1" and "0" can be made and how fast it can be read - processed - executed. Imagen a string of 8 "1's" and "0's"
This is the standart size of a memory string.

Imagen a human voice could take up around 4000 of standart 8 string - per sec! so 32000 "1's" or "0's" has to be processed along side all the instruments - AT THE SAME TIME, EVERY SEC for as long as that song is playing...

A normal hardisk is a "stone" where write your runs in a multi multi multi layred disk.
A SSD harddisk is "paper"... paper is faster to write on compared to stone, but dont live as long

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 19 Apr 2022 20:53:50 No.14410431 Report

Quoted By: >>14410446 >>14410448

>>14410316
yeah, I know, it was never confusing. It was actually why I was bothered by the article that wrote "electromagnet changes the polarity of the particles to write 1 or 0." ... and since I wrote my question I understand it better (I hadn't understand that polarity have only "two state" possible so I tough that something was missing but not really, I just didn't grasp the notion of "polarity", "magnetic particle" and how it can be changed/works all together)

I (op) also responded :
>>14409982
>>14410232

I get what you mean by that but saying it can represent anything is not entirely correct, it represent only (any) dual state model.

(The infinite combination of infinite one/zero can represent anything tho)

But I m just playing with word.

>>14410360
Thanks ! So the charges is set to a certain quantity for "1" and empty for "0" or the charges can go further than storing just one bit at a time ?

>>14410386
I know I didn't write it well and my question is confusing since I wrote "data" instead of bit but I do perfectly understand the notion of 1 and 0, it's all about how it is stored, how it is writtend on a support, not how it is used.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 19 Apr 2022 20:55:22 No.14410440 Report

Quoted By: >>14410731

>>14409999
It seems like the potential exists to compact the 01 form more. Don't know how though, maybe increase the quantity of digits.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 19 Apr 2022 20:56:35 No.14410446 Report

Quoted By: >>14410552

>>14410431
>>14410386
So what you dont understand, is how that data is used or how this data is processed?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 19 Apr 2022 20:57:25 No.14410448 Report

Quoted By: >>14410552 >>14410731

>>14410431
>So the charges is set to a certain quantity for "1" and empty for "0" or the charges can go further than storing just one bit at a time ?
it's one bit per floating gate transistor. you would have a bunch of transistors in a row to make a byte, etc, and those would be addressed, if you want to know how memory works do the first few chapters of NAND2TETRIS (it takes only 1-4 weeks depending on how much time you sink in)

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 19 Apr 2022 21:01:28 No.14410467 Report

Quoted By: >>14410495 >>14410504 >>14410552 >>14410605

>>14410386
CPUs have clockspeed on the order of GHz (one BILLION cycles per second) and have 64 bit wide data bus meaning 64,000,000,000+ bits per second. the clock cycles are SLOWER than the maximum time it takes for your cpu to compute an instruction so that every clock cycle you don't have to worry about if the cpu is still trying to compute something

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 19 Apr 2022 21:09:34 No.14410495 Report

Quoted By: >>14410506 >>14410552 >>14410731

>>14410467
i know, i just just thought i should start slow...
For if he/her/it/is dont understand how harddisk works more 0's will just confuse the kid.

It's very basic how harddisk, RAM or whatever computer work if you understand how much data, how many bits can be red evey sec by the most basic of computer hardware.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 19 Apr 2022 21:11:22 No.14410504 Report

Quoted By:

>>14410386
oops i >>14410467 thought you were OP asking a question

>>14410232
>it's like saying "how do you write" and it stop at "you write word, wich are mades of letters, on papers" ... but how ?
you write to addresses. when you want to address data to memory, you active the area in memory by entering the correct address, and that combination unlocks the spot in memory that you write to

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 19 Apr 2022 21:12:23 No.14410506 Report

Quoted By:

>>14410495
got you i misunderstood your post i thought you were OP

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 19 Apr 2022 21:23:37 No.14410552 Report

Quoted By: >>14410556 >>14410566

(I'm OP)

>>14410446
If by processed you mean the form it take on a support, at the lowest level possible, physically speaking and not "programmatically" speaking, that is that that I don't/didn't understand.

I didn't understand how is was stored/read (the process of reading, not the interpretation of what is read/not how fast it is read) on a disk, how the "0" and a "1" are PHYSICALLY stored.

But >>14410360 helped me on how it's stored on SSD with floating gate transistors, and I found out (I hope) how it's stored on HDD ("Hard disks use tiny magnetised regions to store bits - the state of the bit is related to the direction of magnetism")
>>14410448
and thanks again
>>14410495
>>14410467
>>14410386
Please read my responses, you are off topic : it's not about understanding the concept of 0 and 1 and how it is used, it's not about how it logically works (I know enough in that area, not an expert but I already know what you wrote or know where to find more about it), it how it physically works, like electricity, magnetism and all...

When I asked "how a book is written", I don't expect the answer "it need someone to find a subject, then make research about it, elaborate, it take times, need to be good to be understand, etc." wich is the content of the book.
I was seeking for an answer as "it take ink that is applied on a support, wich can be paper, wich is thin layer of wood, or it can be leather, coming from cow, etc."
You know what I mean ?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 19 Apr 2022 21:25:07 No.14410556 Report

Quoted By:

>>14410552
hi OP, its me (you)

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 19 Apr 2022 21:29:16 No.14410566 Report

Quoted By: >>14410576 >>14410688 >>14410731

>>14410552
>Please read my responses, you are off topic
Anon you are clearly ESL and your questions are vague so excuse us for trying to help

>how it physically works, like electricity, magnetism and all...
SSDs use floating gate transistors. you can look them up, you activate the gate by putting a voltage across it and a 1 will store the electrons that cross the channel in the gate. it's just electricity, no magnetism.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 19 Apr 2022 21:32:35 No.14410576 Report

Quoted By: >>14410579 >>14410688 >>14410731

>>14410566
OP probably wonders why when there is no electricity those 0s and 1s keep their states in drives
Thats what i got from the very beginning

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 19 Apr 2022 21:33:21 No.14410579 Report

Quoted By: >>14410603 >>14410731

>>14410576
i answered it with my first post >>14410360
>Since the FG is surrounded by highly resistive material, the charge contained in it remains unchanged for long periods of time, nowadays typically longer than 10 years.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 19 Apr 2022 21:38:56 No.14410603 Report

Quoted By: >>14410605

>>14410579
Oh nice, its hard to sometimes read stuff between long posts

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 19 Apr 2022 21:40:10 No.14410605 Report

Quoted By: >>14410731

>>14410603
yep i had the same issue with this post >>14410467 i skimmed and thought he was OP.

i think OP needs to just watch a youtube video about floating gates and do NAND2TETRIS

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 19 Apr 2022 22:04:12 No.14410683 Report

Quoted By:

>>14409927
You didn't even read his post. People that post just for the sake of posting are the worst.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 19 Apr 2022 22:05:37 No.14410688 Report

Quoted By: >>14410705 >>14410731 >>14410758

>>14410566
>>14410576
Holy shit you guys are retarded. I really sympathize with the OP having to put up with all the idiots in this thread that lack reading comprehension.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 19 Apr 2022 22:08:15 No.14410705 Report

Quoted By: >>14410731

>>14410688
except everything i said was right and i answered all of "OP"s questions. kys dipshit

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 19 Apr 2022 22:16:24 No.14410731 Report

Quoted By: >>14410767

(op here)

>>14410566
yeah, thank you for trying to help, I know it's not easy to understand an ESL. I know it's not indicated but also this : >>14410232 was my response and I literraly wrote

>0 and 1 is a concept. How those "1" and "0" are stored, physically, is what I seek.

and also wrote :
>Okay so writing this I finaly found how to ask it properly on internet, my question shouldn't be "how data are stored ?" but "how bit are stored ?"

And even when I say "please read my responses", you still ignore it :

>it's just electricity, no magnetism
>Hard disks use tiny magnetised regions to store bits - the state of the bit is related to the direction of magnetism"

I get that you didn't understand me, I get that I wasn't obvious, I get that you are trying to help but when you ask something and people explain something else and even after you said "oups, actually I meant XXX", it continue, it's also frustrating (even more when you are not speaking in your own language)

Finally, thanks to :
>>14410279
>>14410309
>>14410360
>>14410440
>>14410448
>>14410576 (for understanding right away ;) )
>>14410579
>>14410605 I will elaborate on floating gates (not sure about NAND2TETRIS, seems about introduction to programming, where I m not a beginner, without being arrogant, and it seems too theoretical about the hardware part where I precisely want... precision ... but if you say I'm wrong about that, I will look it up)

Special mention for patronising >>14410495

Haha thanks >>14410688

>>14410705
If one of your post is in my "thank" list, then honestly thanks for that... anything else was ... off topic ... it's not a personnal attack or something to say that.

Also, for a personnal attack :
>everything i said was right
>ego.exe
>answered all of "OP"s questions
after or before understanding the topic ?

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 19 Apr 2022 22:20:54 No.14410758 Report

Quoted By:

>>14410688
erhm

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 19 Apr 2022 22:22:07 No.14410767 Report

Quoted By:

>>14410731
>0 and 1 is a concept. How those "1" and "0" are stored, physically, is what I seek.
>my question shouldn't be "how data are stored ?" but "how bit are stored ?"
again i answered it with my first post in this thread >>14410360 a bit IS data, it's the smallest increment of data. if you mean "how is memory addressed" then you can learn that in NAND2TETRIS. but if you mean how do floating gate transistors work (and you don't like my answer) then you can watch a youtube video

>ego.exe
wtf how is it ego? the guy called me "retarded" even though i already answered OP. what did i say that was wrong? you wanted to know how bits are stored and i told you

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 19 Apr 2022 22:28:30 No.14410796 Report

Quoted By:

is this thread full of bots trained on quora pajeets? absolutely abhorrent posts

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 19 Apr 2022 22:37:37 No.14410840 Report

Quoted By:

Electrical circuits store data in the form of charged and uncharged transistors and circuitry in various formats (in the past, things such as punch cards, magnetic wire arrays and vacuum tubes did this also). It's not as simple as people think because you must first understand the concepts of memory and input.

These augment active electrical circuits that are eventually influenced by computer devices - eg input devices and visual output devices. Whenever you press a button, input is received in the form of an alteration to an electrical circuit. This input is "written" by storing this pattern in the form of long term (non-volatile) memory or short term (dynamic) memory.

0s and 1s are basically an abstraction to help us work with these circuits. Otherwise you could also probably diagrammatically draw this data and algorithm behaviour as circuits, but that's impractical. So at the most basic low level we use 0s and 1s or "machine code". In fact, using 0s and 1s is impractical when we give instructions to the computer, so we developed more readable assembly code, then later high level languages that are far more easily readable than assembly code. At the highest level, on an operating system, we use things such as windows, mouse pointers/input and standard input (such as typed english words and numbers) to interact with lower level languages in a manner we want.

The algorithmic interface that allows your input to be stored in a way the computer can process is the interaction with the input electrical circuit and the installed algorithms in memory on the computer (both the hard drives, RAM, booted caches and any other forms of on board memory used for preparing data for processing in the CPU or GPU). That's just a small part of the process. There's also bootable programs when you boot your computer and OS to prepare whatever input data you provide for processing and storage as output (which you could store for short term or save it in long term memory).

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 19 Apr 2022 22:43:24 No.14410867 Report

Quoted By:

>>14410316
We can store memory as 1s and 0s, but they're just algorithmic representations of interactions with an electrical circuit.

It's actually interesting how abstract it really is at the lowest level with binary to machine interfaces. It's crazy how it just works developed into the sophisticated programs and interfaces we see today now.
I was amazed at how abstract and simplified it really was.

Then again, I assume this is why quantum computing is now becoming a thing - to exploit the nature of circuitry and logic on more complicated levels.

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