/sci/ - Science & Math » Thread #14304733

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Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 04:36:24 2022 No.14304733 View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>14304761 >>14304763 >>14304796 >>14305170 >>14305242

is the universe deterministic or probabilistic?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 04:46:18 No.14304756 Report

Quoted By: >>14305242

both

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 04:47:17 No.14304759 Report

Quoted By: >>14305242

yes

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 04:47:52 No.14304761 Report

Quoted By: >>14304782 >>14305242

>>14304733
Determinism is just unfalsifiable pseudoscience cope at this point.
>b-b-b-but chaotic systems ARE deterministic
>i just fundamentally can never verify the correctness of my models
>but trust me, bro

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 04:51:43 No.14304763 Report

Quoted By: >>14304782

>>14304733
For it to be sensible to human minds, it has to be deterministic on the human scale.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 05:03:22 No.14304782 Report

Quoted By: >>14304786

>>14304761
No you literary need to prof that your System has an part which cant be described by a formulary, or it will always be measurement uncertainty.
>>14304763
More deterministic as chaotic. It doesn't need to be 100% deterministic.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 05:05:47 No.14304786 Report

Quoted By: >>14304793

>>14304782
>No you literary need to prof that your System has an part which cant be described by a formulary
You literary need to prof that your System has an formulary which it can be described by. "Trust me bro" is not a proof.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 05:07:55 No.14304793 Report

Quoted By: >>14304799 >>14305242

>>14304786
So if i lets say take an 10 pound hammer, and let it fall on your feet. You wouldn't blame me cause we cant know what exactly will happen?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 05:09:02 No.14304796 Report

Quoted By:

>>14304733
universe was not made with maths

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 05:11:28 No.14304799 Report

Quoted By: >>14304803

>>14304793
I can predict easily what will happen when hammer falls on foot, brainlet.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 05:13:06 No.14304803 Report

Quoted By: >>14304810

>>14304799
So why then you have a problem with determinism?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 05:14:29 No.14304810 Report

Quoted By: >>14304812 >>14304816

>>14304803
I have no problem with determinism in deterministic systems. The universe, as a whole, just can't be empirically shown to be one of them.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 05:16:32 No.14304812 Report

Quoted By:

>>14304810
Yeah that's what i think too there are deterministic and chaotic parts.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 05:17:11 No.14304816 Report

Quoted By: >>14304819

>>14304810
That's not true. The universe can be modeled deterministically, see astronomy.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 05:18:05 No.14304817 Report

Quoted By:

>muh determinism

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 05:18:13 No.14304819 Report

Quoted By: >>14304820

>>14304816
>The universe can be modeled deterministically
You can't even predict a 3-body system, let alone a whole universe.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 05:19:01 No.14304820 Report

Quoted By: >>14304830

>>14304819
Anon, I'm telling you to look up the field of astronomy. Do it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 05:22:05 No.14304830 Report

Quoted By: >>14304843 >>14304846 >>14305242

>>14304820
Clearly, I know about it more than you do, since you apparently can't fathom 3-body systems.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 05:25:52 No.14304843 Report

Quoted By: >>14304848

>>14304830
There is nothing special about three body systems. All of them can be treated deterministically and you can deduce lots of useful things about them thanks to this deterministic model, for example energy conservation.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 05:26:29 No.14304846 Report

Quoted By: >>14304855

>>14304830
Ok yeah but, this is maybe just to pi related?!
How do we know its not the fail of mathematics?
How do we know a more advanced mathematics cant solve it?
I mean we never can fully calculate pi so...

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 05:27:17 No.14304848 Report

Quoted By: >>14304854

>>14304843
>There is nothing special about three body systems.
You mean except for the fact that the only way to know the positions of the bodies in the future is to physically wait and see what happens, and that it is fundamentally so?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 05:29:04 No.14304854 Report

Quoted By: >>14304859

>>14304848
>didn't address the rest of my post
I accept your concession.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 05:29:05 No.14304855 Report

Quoted By:

>>14304846
>b-b-b-but maybe my idealistic fantasies are right and math is broken
Okay. Call me back when it proves to be the case.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 05:30:13 No.14304859 Report

Quoted By: >>14304862

>>14304854
The rest of your post is irrelevant. Being able to deduce other things about them doesn't negate the fact there is fundamentally no way to predict where the bodies will be.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 05:31:47 No.14304862 Report

Quoted By: >>14304864

>>14304859
>there is fundamentally no way to predict where the bodies will be.
>fundamentally
Of course there is. Just use Newton's laws.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 05:34:21 No.14304864 Report

Quoted By: >>14304875

>>14304862
Oh, so you are actually disabled and just can't wrap your head around what chaotic systems are. Just stop posting. The level absolute state of nu-sci...

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 05:38:05 No.14304875 Report

Quoted By: >>14304877

>>14304864
"Chaotic" is not fundamental or even well-defined lmao

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 05:38:48 No.14304877 Report

Quoted By: >>14304887

>>14304875
Okay, there is really no need for you to keep posting when you openly admit to not understand what a chaotic system is.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 05:43:01 No.14304887 Report

Quoted By: >>14304894

>>14304877
Stop being retarded please, it's very annoying to others around you
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory#Introduction
>Chaos theory concerns deterministic systems whose behavior can, in principle, be predicted.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 05:46:23 No.14304894 Report

Quoted By: >>14304903

>>14304887
Rest of that paragraph:
>meaningful prediction cannot be made over an interval of more than two or three times the Lyapunov time. When meaningful predictions cannot be made, the system appears random.
Now stop posting. You've already admitted to being a mouth breather. I don't know what wikishills means when it says "in principle", given that in principle, there can never be a method to make a meaningful prediction.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 05:50:17 No.14304903 Report

Quoted By: >>14304914

>>14304894
"Chaos theory" is a part of the theory of ordinary differential equations which describe deterministic systems. You have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. Open a textbook on dynamical systems and ODEs and stop being a retarded dumbfuck instead of using some retarded popsci meaning of "chaotic". Also learn what the fuck "fundamental" means you fucking monkey.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 05:58:24 No.14304914 Report

Quoted By:

>>14304903
It's been shown that the general 3-body problem has no closed-form solution. All you can do to get a prediction out of it is use some numerical integration scheme. No matter how small your time delta is, your prediction will diverge further and further from reality, on account of the system being chaotic. These are simple and undisuited mathematical facts. There is simply no way to know where the bodies will be. It's not a matter of it being practically impossible, but a matter of it being impossible in principle, since no matter how much computing power you have at your disposal, predictions will diverge from reality for any time delta.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 08:10:03 No.14305170 Report

Quoted By: >>14305187

>>14304733
does it matter if you can't tell the difference?

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 08:14:00 No.14305187 Report

Quoted By: >>14305275

>>14305170
>does it matter if you can't tell the difference?
The motto of the bugman world.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 08:33:45 No.14305242 Report

Quoted By: >>14305249

>>14304733
Both
>>14304756
Yes
>>14304759
E yes
>>14304761
Absolute fucking idiot that should be downgraded to kindergarten.
>>14304793
Mega turbo idiot imbecile.
>>14304830
I just realized this idiot may be the same idiot commenting all over again.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 08:35:52 No.14305249 Report

Quoted By: >>14305259

>>14305242
>t. seething trog
It must be frustrating when all you can do when you see something you disagree with is to chimp out because you're not smart enough to refute it. :^)

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 08:40:18 No.14305259 Report

Quoted By: >>14305274

>>14305249
I will not refute anything you say because clearly you have 0 (zero) education in the matter and would just be a waste of time even talking to you on any related topic.
I'm a physics engineer, btw.
Enjoy feeling smarter, wrong man.
But when you get tired, do the fucking math.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 08:48:07 No.14305274 Report

Quoted By:

>>14305259
>impotent seething continues
Why do you bother replying? Surely, it does nothing to relieve your frustration since my points still stand unchallenged. :^)

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 08:48:48 No.14305275 Report

Quoted By: >>14305287

is >>14305187 a perfectly executed predetermined response
or an individual disseminating strongly held counter position
or the product of hydrogen coalescing into more and more complex systems?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 15 Mar 2022 08:54:53 No.14305287 Report

Quoted By:

>>14305275
I don't know, but your post is certainly a product of rudimentary social programming.

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