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Nocebo Effect - Diagnosis Is Harming Patients

Nobody !9GXfcuDphU Sat 11 Dec 03:17:51 2021 No.13949031 View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>13949873 >>13949879 >>13955861

https://www.webmd.com/balance/features/is-the-nocebo-effect-hurting-your-health

You take the sugar pill away and it's just the power of belief. So diagnosis according to this effect is harming patients.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 11 Dec 2021 08:57:17 No.13949779 Report

Quoted By: >>13949809 >>13949891 >>13954913 >>13955788

Does the placebo and nocebo effect imply that our will extends beyond the physical external world and into our own bodies?

If we can will endorphins to flood our system via some imagined good news that we hear, or a good laugh that we "think" is funny then why can't we will our immune system to fight infection or to increase our metabolism?

Humor and good news is a trigger for endorphins so what's the trigger for immune response or altering metabolism?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 11 Dec 2021 09:07:54 No.13949803 Report

Quoted By: >>13949848 >>13949850

Both placebos and nocebos aren't that statistically significant anyways so it doesn't matter.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 11 Dec 2021 09:10:52 No.13949809 Report

Quoted By: >>13949820

>>13949779
>beyond the physical external world and into our own bodies
>external
>into ou own bodies

Bruh...your brain is directly connected to you body...

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 11 Dec 2021 09:17:38 No.13949820 Report

Quoted By: >>13949891 >>13954159 >>13954917

>>13949809

Are you retard?

Do you have concious control over your stomach acid production like you do your breathing?

Why do you have conscious control over some bodily systems but not others? Some systems are reactive to external elements only.

If nocebo and placebo are real then people ARE controlling organs and glands at least subconsciously.

The question is how do you tap into that?

Nobody !9GXfcuDphU

Nobody !9GXfcuDphU Sat 11 Dec 2021 09:34:01 No.13949848 Report

Quoted By:

>>13949803
No but it's like taking several of them over a long period of time.

Nobody !9GXfcuDphU

Nobody !9GXfcuDphU Sat 11 Dec 2021 09:35:25 No.13949850 Report

Quoted By:

>>13949803
It also depends on the cycle of it. How often it's like taking a placebo. Is it constantly? We need to figure that out.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 11 Dec 2021 09:57:00 No.13949873 Report

Quoted By:

>>13949031
>it's safe and effective, bigot!!
>it doesn't work because you don't believe in it!!
The ultimate state of medicine.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 11 Dec 2021 10:01:12 No.13949879 Report

Quoted By: >>13949881 >>13949885 >>13949887

>>13949031
Placebo/nocebo are a copout for delegating responsibility for statistical biases induced by regression to the mean/shitty blinding/study design to the patient. They only exist in patient reported outcomes, and nowhere else.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 11 Dec 2021 10:03:29 No.13949881 Report

Quoted By: >>13949882

>>13949879
Another brainlet take from an organism of questionable origins...

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 11 Dec 2021 10:05:25 No.13949882 Report

Quoted By: >>13949883 >>13953580

>>13949881
Ok bro. Keep believing in magical thinking if you want to.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 11 Dec 2021 10:06:52 No.13949883 Report

Quoted By:

>>13949882
Don't you have some consciousness denial thread to post in? I'm stumped.

Nobody !9GXfcuDphU

Nobody !9GXfcuDphU Sat 11 Dec 2021 10:07:16 No.13949885 Report

Quoted By: >>13949888 >>13949897

>>13949879
So you're saying it's just a cognitive bias effect?

Nobody !9GXfcuDphU

Nobody !9GXfcuDphU Sat 11 Dec 2021 10:08:17 No.13949887 Report

Quoted By:

>>13949879
That makes sense to some degree. Except in the case of mental illness, in the case of something mental like that it would create an illness.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 11 Dec 2021 10:08:26 No.13949888 Report

Quoted By: >>13949892

>>13949885
He's saying it's a statistical artifact because he can't process the idea of what you think changing how you feel, despite it being a common experience for anyone with self-awareness.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 11 Dec 2021 10:11:09 No.13949891 Report

Quoted By:

>>13949820
>>13949779
You sort of can, this is why CBT can be effective for pain management for example.

Nobody !9GXfcuDphU

Nobody !9GXfcuDphU Sat 11 Dec 2021 10:11:21 No.13949892 Report

Quoted By:

>>13949888
Oh. I see.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 11 Dec 2021 10:16:51 No.13949897 Report

Quoted By: >>13949912

>>13949885
It's real, but its clinical importance is greatly overexaggerated, and in most cases better explained through other factors. Like the errorneous belief that whatever box a patient ticks on a questionnaire is fully representative of their actual symptoms.
See for example: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.5694/mja2.51230
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-placebo-effect/

Nobody !9GXfcuDphU

Nobody !9GXfcuDphU Sat 11 Dec 2021 10:31:09 No.13949912 Report

Quoted By: >>13953581

>>13949897
That is entirely not provable though. You can't quantify patient experience.

Jesus

Jesus Sun 12 Dec 2021 10:10:50 No.13953580 Report

Quoted By:

>>13949882
if you feed a guy from India a pizza, and then tell him it had pork, he will likely vomit. but only after you tell him.
magic is attention control, and magical thinking is dominant.

Jesus

Jesus Sun 12 Dec 2021 10:11:51 No.13953581 Report

Quoted By:

>>13949912
deaf cannot quantify music.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 12 Dec 2021 14:31:50 No.13954159 Report

Quoted By:

>>13949820
First you were talking about the external and internal. But now you're talking about the conscious and unconscious.

That aside, the whole reason placebo 'works' is because the subject consciously believes something so much, that the thought seeps into the sub- and unconscious and make changes happen.
Where do you think "fake it till you make it" comes from? If you fake something so much that you yourself starts believing it, that's literally the placebo effect at work there.

>Do you have concious control over your stomach acid production like you do your breathing?
Breathing is a bad example, as it can be both an unconscious and a conscious bodily process

>The question is how do you tap into that?
Believe in something till it becomes like second nature

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 12 Dec 2021 18:36:05 No.13954913 Report

Quoted By:

>>13949779
>If we can will endorphins to flood our system via some imagined good news that we hear, or a good laugh that we "think" is funny then why can't we will our immune system to fight infection or to increase our metabolism?
I mean, that's the point of trying to keep patients positive and recommending they retain social connections. It won't necessarily cure everything, but it's connected to better outcomes.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 12 Dec 2021 18:37:09 No.13954917 Report

Quoted By:

>>13949820
>Do you have concious control over your stomach acid production like you do your breathing?
Yes, in a way. Stress reduces stomach acid. Being relaxed improves digestion.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 12 Dec 2021 22:25:57 No.13955788 Report

Quoted By:

>>13949779
>why can't we will our immune system to fight infection or to increase our metabolism?

Look up Wim Hof

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 12 Dec 2021 22:43:54 No.13955861 Report

Quoted By:

>>13949031
that's clearly not about medicine, but about the fact that physical matter doesn't mean the slightest thing. "spirituality/mind trumps matter" is what the problem at hand actually says.
you become what you believe - and most of you believe you'll turn into nothingness when you die.

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