/sci/ - Science & Math » Thread #13819531

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>Quietly deduces and solves the origin of consciousness in 1977

Anonymous Thu 04 Nov 20:09:22 2021 No.13819531 View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>13819733 >>13820450 >>13821121 >>13823488 >>13836338 >>13839882

B A S A D O
We’re all schizophrenic and schizophrenia is our shepherd, the shepherd of human consciousness itself

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 04 Nov 2021 21:10:35 No.13819733 Report

Quoted By:

>>13819531
based. i have induced a form of bicameral mentality through sheer force of will.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 05 Nov 2021 01:34:45 No.13820450 Report

Quoted By: >>13822905 >>13834005 >>13834757

>>13819531
Hello anon, this is God. You need to take out the garbage today.

Thanks
God

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 05 Nov 2021 06:07:18 No.13821121 Report

Quoted By: >>13821126

>>13819531
Can I get a tl;dr on who this is and what his idea of consciousness is?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 05 Nov 2021 06:10:45 No.13821126 Report

Quoted By: >>13821143 >>13821343 >>13828894

>>13821121
The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind
By Julian Jaynes.

Basically language function hijacked our ability for our personal god to speak directly to us

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 05 Nov 2021 06:24:28 No.13821143 Report

Quoted By: >>13821147

>>13821126
>Basically language function hijacked our ability for our personal god to speak directly to us
What in the fuck does that mean?

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 05 Nov 2021 06:27:11 No.13821147 Report

Quoted By:

>>13821143
The functional part of our brain that processes language is the same part that is used to hear voices which guide us (god(s))

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 05 Nov 2021 08:55:00 No.13821339 Report

Quoted By: >>13821422

Yeah this guy is highly misunderstood. He says that consciousness appeared with language but apparently that's not what he meant! Hes the original "you cant think without words!".
Because he wasn't rejected and ridiculed immediately many psychologists learned to be afraid of criticizing him, because he might be right since hes not been widely mocked.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 05 Nov 2021 08:58:09 No.13821343 Report

Quoted By: >>13823488

>>13821126
>Bicameral Mind
Retarded hypothesis for retards, with no supporting evidence.

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 05 Nov 2021 09:33:49 No.13821422 Report

Quoted By: >>13826765

>>13821339
Perhaps it is you who is misunderstanding him. He doesn’t say you can’t think without words. It’s more the way we identify with consciousness is through words and before we had words, we were guided by something internal to us, which is the concept described in language as “god”. He goes into origins of words and tries to explain how the first use of words are related to emotion and action, and these words were closely tied to the names of gods in our mythology

Anonymous

Anonymous Fri 05 Nov 2021 18:40:39 No.13822905 Report

Quoted By: >>13831430

>>13820450
God i've been through a lot of shit with you thinking different things of you. But not I think I get it, you're not benevolent, but not evil either. You're fucking weird tho God, anyone ever told you that, you're just flat out weird man.

I think its because you're autistic.
God is autistic. If so, it answers a lot of questions I think.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Fri 05 Nov 2021 22:05:38 No.13823488 Report

Quoted By: >>13825231 >>13825240 >>13826452 >>13827260 >>13833197

>>13821343
>retarded
>for retards
This is the surest way to spot a seething pseud. Luckily for us you have pea brained idiots expose yourself so promptly.
>>13819531
Julian Jaynes was a genius. Whether time proves him right or wrong, his book will still be a great one for history, ideas and prose alone.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 06 Nov 2021 13:21:42 No.13825231 Report

Quoted By: >>13825645

>>13823488

im feel so sorry for the amount of retardation, that has took over your body.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Nov 2021 13:26:42 No.13825240 Report

Quoted By: >>13825645

>>13823488
Seems unnecesarily verbose. Is that how to turn a shitpost into a 400 page tome?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Nov 2021 16:11:57 No.13825645 Report

Quoted By: >>13826382

>>13825231
unironically kys
>>13825240
no it’s called poetey and about being passionate, something low iq midwits can’t relate to or even begin comprehend.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 06 Nov 2021 17:15:19 No.13825896 Report

Quoted By: >>13826109 >>13826488

>Psychologists debate over whether ancient people were conscious
Jackasses. This is horseshit of horseshit.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Nov 2021 18:26:50 No.13826109 Report

Quoted By:

>>13825896
>Not understanding the importance to humanity of psychology, mythology and philosophy of science. Very much a brainlet filter.
NGMI

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Nov 2021 19:57:08 No.13826382 Report

Quoted By: >>13826472

>>13825645
Its verbose for no reason. It burdens the reader with endless word salad.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Nov 2021 19:59:00 No.13826389 Report

Quoted By:

consciousness appeared after simple language, the perfect balance of abstract emotions led to the rise of consciousness as we know it

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Nov 2021 20:14:58 No.13826452 Report

Quoted By:

>>13823488
>>>/lit/
Not bad. Just not /sci/.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Nov 2021 20:20:16 No.13826472 Report

Quoted By:

>>13826382
t. soulless limp dicked meathead nouveau-scientist of the do nothing of substance variety

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Nov 2021 20:24:56 No.13826488 Report

Quoted By: >>13826554 >>13827066

>>13825896
Yeah, and? You have no way of proving they were conscious. All we have to go off of are ancient texts which show a very different thought pattern than our modern one.

Like Plato and Aristotle think similarly to modern humans, but not similarly to the works of Homer. Why is that? Why aren't there ancient philosophical texts that aren't schizo/religious in nature?

It's a very natural question to ask. Why are ancient religious texts, poetry, laws, etc structured the way they are? It shows a completely different thought pattern than works after a certain period of time. It's not even really a styling (like where narrative structures came from). What WAS the bronze age collapse?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Nov 2021 20:48:22 No.13826554 Report

Quoted By: >>13826776

>>13826488
We have a very tiny amount of literature from the ancient past. It is asinine to make judgements based on what we don't have, especially the idea that there is something so profound about our culture that it literally holds consciousness. This is arrogance, not scholarship. Ancient people had brains just as large as ours and craved love and honor the same way we do.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Nov 2021 20:56:48 No.13826573 Report

Quoted By:

GIVE THIS GUY A PATENT SO THAT HIS ESTATE CAN COLLECT ROYALTIES ON REALITY.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 06 Nov 2021 20:59:06 No.13826585 Report

Quoted By: >>13826594 >>13826752

here's the book

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Nov 2021 21:03:22 No.13826594 Report

Quoted By:

>>13826585
TIL you can post pdfs on 4channel. neat

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Nov 2021 22:00:52 No.13826752 Report

Quoted By:

>>13826585
thanks anon, have a bumperino

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Nov 2021 22:07:03 No.13826765 Report

Quoted By: >>13828009

>>13821422
so, god=subconscious processing bridging into conscious execution?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 06 Nov 2021 22:09:51 No.13826776 Report

Quoted By: >>13832731

>>13826554
You realize you are making just as big of an assumption right?

This is honestly the whole point of research and why I find people like you to be mentally retarded. We currently have no way of proving whether ancient people were or were not conscious, which has nothing to do with brain size. The only actual logical thing to do here is to establish opposing axioms and explore the logical conclusion of both. From these conclusions we can look for evidence that either confirms or denies the axiom. It's very basic logic and is how groundbreaking research is done.

It's funny you bring up love though, there very little evidence of what we consider love in the west before Sappho. In fact, many people argue that Sappho CREATED love as a concept and that the concept changed the plastique of the mind. The mind is very plastique you know right?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 07 Nov 2021 00:03:49 No.13827066 Report

Quoted By: >>13827128 >>13827140

>>13826488
>YOU CAN'T PROVE ANCIENTS WERE CONSCIOUS
>t. brainlet
You can't prove they weren't. See how you were just defeated by your own thoughtless "argument"?
The simplest assumption is that they were. Plus sculptures date back tens of thousands of years and rock paintings date back hundreds of thousands of years. It is literally retarded to assume that pre-writing humans had no consciousness.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 07 Nov 2021 00:28:04 No.13827128 Report

Quoted By:

>>13827066
The consciousness of the book isn't qualia/experience, it's narrowly defined as conscious self reflection, reasoning in terms of 'I'.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 07 Nov 2021 00:32:45 No.13827140 Report

Quoted By:

>>13827066
And also the story of Oedipus appeared centuries after the book posits this sort of consciousness emerged.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 07 Nov 2021 01:40:58 No.13827260 Report

Quoted By:

>>13823488
See split brain patients.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 07 Nov 2021 09:10:25 No.13828009 Report

Quoted By:

>>13826765
It’s not necessarily ‘god’ but the way early texts describe an action they perform as ‘happening to them’. They don’t have the same relationship with action as we do, like the feeling that we are responsible for what we do, the feeling of ‘I am doing this’, is described as ‘this feeling/voice/god possesses me to do this’.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 07 Nov 2021 17:43:40 No.13828894 Report

Quoted By: >>13830448

>>13821126
>Basically language function hijacked our ability for our personal god to speak directly to us
Are you sure about that? It doesn't match the fact that introspection cam later, well after we had language. Also ref Iliad vs. Odyssey.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 08 Nov 2021 02:54:09 No.13830448 Report

Quoted By: >>13831317

>>13828894
No I’m not sure about that but that’s the impression presented to me in this book. Downfall of civilizations show people desperate to get back in touch with their gods but they’ve lost this ability and thus perish or live in ruins. Like they’ve lost the instinct to live in harmony with nature and become so focused on idols instead

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 08 Nov 2021 09:03:48 No.13831317 Report

Quoted By: >>13831430

>>13830448
The Iliad and Odyssey were both handed down by oral tradition, hence language had to exits at that time. Both are credited to Homer but that is highly unlikely. One has introspection, the earlier has not.
Interestingly the Icelandic sagas also lack introspection and those were far more recent.

BTW did you know Snow Crash is based on this?

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 08 Nov 2021 09:17:51 No.13831331 Report

Quoted By: >>13831459

https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/06/01/book-review-origin-of-consciousness-in-the-breakdown-of-the-bicameral-mind/

Solivagus

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Solivagus Mon 08 Nov 2021 10:39:02 No.13831430 Report

Quoted By: >>13831465

>>13822905
Glad I answered such a large swathe of questions for you. Happy to perform function, process your request, and translate your intentions automatically for you from now onwards.

>>13831317
Pressure existed before sensitivity which existed before impact.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 08 Nov 2021 10:57:27 No.13831459 Report

Quoted By:

>>13831331
The pomposity is off the scales:
>So I’m going to start by reviewing a slightly different book, the one Jaynes should have written. Then I’ll talk about the more dubious one he actually wrote.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 08 Nov 2021 11:03:17 No.13831465 Report

Quoted By: >>13831472

>>13831430
It’s interesting to think about how an origin to the big visualized gods like Athene happened. How in tune that mind was to spread the memetic god image to the tribe. The potential crazy wisdom of those harnessing visions and how different but brilliant these minds may have been

Solivagus

Solivagus Mon 08 Nov 2021 11:05:19 No.13831472 Report

Quoted By:

>>13831465
The integrity of impact is all I am, a memory that simply melts and merges with everything.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 08 Nov 2021 16:27:33 No.13832066 Report

Quoted By: >>13832487

What I like about the theory of Julian Jaynes, is that, in addition to make a theory about the origin of consciousness, it also explain where does religion comes from.

I'm a hardcore scientist and atheist and this appeal to me.

Right ? Where the fuck does religion come from ? Meaning :
During the evolution of man, how and why does religion emerge ?

I get that there may be some benefits at the social level because it would increase social belonging and all that, but from an individual perspective, religion always seemed to me like the pinnacle of retardation.

So how do you explain this level of retardation ? And it's not like men of the Antiquity were dumb, look out what they constructed and the maths they made

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 08 Nov 2021 18:54:52 No.13832487 Report

Quoted By: >>13832724

>>13832066
Religion was the means by which societies were built with specialised professions, where the priest/scribes and soldiers were able to live off the land. In that respect it had utility.

As to where it comes from, my long shot is that it was curiosity. You have the eternal questions such as where do we come from, where do we go, what is the meaning of live etc. and most religions provide an explanation. Usually this extends to explain the world (made by the chief god) thunder and lightening (there is a god for that too, with badly greased wheel axles riding across the skies) and more. And in that respect it also had utility.

And let us not forget most religions also provide an ethical framework, often with clear laws. This establishes right from wrong, and is crucial in maintaining peace and building society, and this has utility even today. Hammurabi's laws were popular up to recent times.

Another long shot: societies need religion to establish a working, lasting society. Societies that did not, have perished and left us early in history.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 08 Nov 2021 20:26:51 No.13832724 Report

Quoted By: >>13832766

>>13832487
we did organized our scocitey around religion but this is not what is reponsibe for specialised professions like you said.
it's not religion that told us how to farm the land, how to build builiding or how to work metal
same for law, god or not, men write it in the end. And they would have done so either way when we started living in small cities

But again, I know that in the big picture it was beneficial, maybe even an advantage over those groups that did not

what is fucking bizare is, out of nowhere, thinking that gods (humanoids no one as seen or heard) are responsible for everything in life

I don't see how one, when thinking about how the world works, would arrive at such conclusions. Besides, chimpanzees are really smart, and we are smarter. I find it absolutely absurd on an individual / psychology perspective

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 08 Nov 2021 20:30:23 No.13832731 Report

Quoted By:

>>13826776
>We currently have no way of proving whether ancient people were or were not conscious

I can't prove that you are conscious, nor anything else. It's all argument from analogy that I am conscious and the more similar you are to me the more likely it is

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 08 Nov 2021 20:43:35 No.13832766 Report

Quoted By: >>13833075

>>13832724
>we did organized our scocitey around religion but this is not what is reponsibe for specialised professions like you said.
What did then?
>it's not religion that told us how to farm the land, how to build builiding or how to work metal
I never claimed religion told to how to farm, only that with specialisation did we transition from farming hamlets to societies. As for metal working and more, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_(mythology)
>same for law, god or not, men write it in the end. And they would have done so either way when we started living in small cities
Of course humans wrote the law, though Julian Jaynes believe they thought they got this directly from the gods. My point is that the religion gave them the framework for a legal system, which also needs means for enforcement if it is to work.

>what is fucking bizare is, out of nowhere, thinking that gods (humanoids no one as seen or heard) are responsible for everything in life
Again Jaynes has a set of arguments here. In any case, being able blame misfortune on gods has the advantage of shifting the blame away from the local rulers.

>I don't see how one, when thinking about how the world works, would arrive at such conclusions.
The difference is that we had the Age of Enlightenment, where religion lost the grip over society. That is not the case for the entire world.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 08 Nov 2021 21:58:50 No.13833075 Report

Quoted By: >>13833078

>>13832766
> What did then?
increase in technical knowledge and distrinct economic activities

> As for metal working and more, see [something about mythology]
wtf ? mythology isn't responsible to gaining access to knowing how to manipulate bronze or steel

> religion gave them the framework for a legal system
law isn't rocket science : don't kill your neighboor, don't steal, pay your bills, don't make incest sex ... etc it has evreything to do with game theory and biology.

> The difference is that we had the Age of Enlightenment, where religion lost the grip over society. That is not the case for the entire world.
the question is how do we begin to believe in gods, not why we stop believing. I appreciate that you talk about the Age of Enlightenment and not about Renaissance though

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 08 Nov 2021 22:00:24 No.13833078 Report

Quoted By:

>>13833075
>religion gave them the framework for a legal system
and the inherent social hierarchy of men, as it is for most animals

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 08 Nov 2021 22:46:31 No.13833197 Report

Quoted By:

>>13823488
Wow, I never realized consciousness is so gay

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 08 Nov 2021 23:17:38 No.13833285 Report

Quoted By: >>13836156

The ancient people weren't conscious.
The modern people aren't conscious.
You aren't conscious.
I am not conscious.
Consciousness doesn't even exist.
Everything is nothing.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 09 Nov 2021 03:45:35 No.13834005 Report

Quoted By: >>13836208

>>13820450
The garbage goes out on Thursday you stupid fucker

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 09 Nov 2021 04:57:47 No.13834120 Report

Quoted By:

>if I say consciousness is a problem
>THEN IT'S A PROBLEM GODDAMN IT
uh
no
no it isn't
you're still just doing meta-physics and shilling for it

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 09 Nov 2021 11:23:24 No.13834757 Report

Quoted By:

>people would look into the eyes of their god statues and hear his voice
I don't get it, Terry A. Davis did this all the time and he was fully conscious
>>13820450
Yes sir Mr God right away sir

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 09 Nov 2021 22:15:13 No.13836156 Report

Quoted By:

>>13833285
Sure you are not confusing this with sapiense and sentience?

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 09 Nov 2021 22:44:29 No.13836208 Report

Quoted By:

>>13834005

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 09 Nov 2021 22:55:03 No.13836232 Report

Quoted By:

Does the fact that it's kind of romantic mean that even though it isn't necessarily true that it has some communicative value?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 09 Nov 2021 23:40:59 No.13836338 Report

Quoted By: >>13837425

>>13819531
how this guy explains JESUS ?

Anonymous

Anonymous Wed 10 Nov 2021 09:02:07 No.13837425 Report

Quoted By:

>>13836338
Jesus is mentioned 11 times in his book. Read it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Thu 11 Nov 2021 01:24:50 No.13839882 Report

Quoted By:

>>13819531

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