/sci/ - Science & Math » Thread #13602742

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Anonymous Sat 04 Sep 15:25:21 2021 No.13602742 View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>13602844 >>13602885 >>13602925 >>13606068 >>13607723 >>13609052

How can something be completely random, yet causal?

How can causality be reconciled with shit like spontaneous emission?

Is this proof that either there are hidden variables behind those events, or some things are simply not causal and "just happen"?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 04 Sep 2021 15:29:01 No.13602751 Report

Quoted By: >>13602824

Well obviously a dice roll is not truly random because if you knew all of the variables at work you could calculate where it would land and how. So the only thing random about it is the fact that the majority of people aren't able to do that calculation and so to them, it's random relatively speaking.

But for "quantum random" where there are supposedly no local variables (hidden or not) there could still be other variables at work that are causing the outcomes, because otherwise I don't even see how it makes sense. Although philosophically technically it is possible for "true random" that we can't conceive.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 04 Sep 2021 15:46:04 No.13602824 Report

Quoted By: >>13602899

>>13602751
Yeah the dice was just a picture, I didn't mean it was truly random.
I thought there were some reasons why those local unknown variables had been discard by current physics, no?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 04 Sep 2021 15:49:46 No.13602844 Report

Quoted By: >>13602862 >>13607209 >>13607570

>>13602742
There have been various experiments confirming randomness and ruling out hidden variables. It's noncontroversial to say that things aren't causal on the quantum scale.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 04 Sep 2021 15:50:38 No.13602846 Report

Quoted By: >>13602862

Operants of the verbal kind.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 04 Sep 2021 15:55:01 No.13602862 Report

Quoted By: >>13602906 >>13607209

>>13602844
>It's noncontroversial to say that things aren't causal on the quantum scale.
This would literally be one of the most relevant things ever discovered by science because it dismantles 90% of philosophy and religion up until this point. This is why I wanted to confirm it.

Is there some reference in the literature I could point to that talks about this?

>>13602846
What? Can you explain more? Haven't heard of this.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 04 Sep 2021 16:01:09 No.13602885 Report

Quoted By: >>13602893

>>13602742
causality just means cause precedes effect which is true even if the event is random.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 04 Sep 2021 16:04:15 No.13602893 Report

Quoted By: >>13602905

>>13602885
By saying you caused something you're inherently saying it's not random. That it has some explaining variable that causes the outcome.
If it's truly random, there is nothing that can have caused it. At least I don't understand how that could be.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 04 Sep 2021 16:05:57 No.13602899 Report

Quoted By: >>13603118

>>13602824
Yes because they did an experiment which logically confirms that as far as we know there's like a 99% chance it's not local hidden variables.

I saw a video on the experiment but I forgot how it worked. Although the quantum world works so wacky we don't really know for sure what's going on lol.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 04 Sep 2021 16:07:48 No.13602905 Report

Quoted By: >>13602921

>>13602893
> By saying you caused something you're inherently saying it's not random.
Well yes but you specifically mentioned spontaneous emission which you can't force to happen so is a completely different scenario.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 04 Sep 2021 16:08:32 No.13602906 Report

Quoted By: >>13602921

>>13602862
>it dismantles 90% of philosophy and religion up until this point
How do you figure?

>Is there some reference in the literature I could point to that talks about this?
Any modern text on quantum physics.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 04 Sep 2021 16:10:29 No.13602921 Report

Quoted By: >>13602928 >>13602930

>>13602905
Yeah, so what "causes" spontaneous emission?
What decides when it happens, or in which direction?
If it's truly spontaneous, I don't see how we can call it causal.
>>13602906
A lot of philosophical positions rely on causality to build upon how the universe works. If we can effectively say causality is not a required condition, it massively changes things. For one it disproves definitely any Thomist related schools of thought.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 04 Sep 2021 16:11:28 No.13602925 Report

Quoted By: >>13607250

>>13602742
Take the many-worlds pill.
All possibilities occur, you just feel one of those.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 04 Sep 2021 16:12:41 No.13602928 Report

Quoted By: >>13602935

>>13602921
You don't seem to understand the word causal. It relates to causality not the act of making something happen.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 04 Sep 2021 16:13:04 No.13602930 Report

Quoted By:

>>13602921
>A lot of philosophical positions rely on causality to build upon how the universe works
Causality still works on normal scales, though... the aggregate of a large number of random events isn't very random at all.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 04 Sep 2021 16:14:33 No.13602935 Report

Quoted By: >>13602944

>>13602928
He understands it just fine. You're the one who seems to be confused. If reality is governed by cause and effect, you can't have things happening without a cause.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 04 Sep 2021 16:17:14 No.13602944 Report

Quoted By: >>13602980

>>13602935
Wrong. It means you can calculate the past given the current state (in the language of QM - the equations are time reversible).

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 04 Sep 2021 16:25:06 No.13602980 Report

Quoted By:

>>13602944
>It means you can calculate the past given the current state
It absolutely doesn't mean that. It means you can calculate the future based on the current state, which you can't do on the quantum scale.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 04 Sep 2021 17:05:34 No.13603104 Report

Quoted By:

bump

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 04 Sep 2021 17:10:11 No.13603118 Report

Quoted By:

>>13602899
>how it worked.
https://youtu.be/ZuvK-od647c?t=4m

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 05 Sep 2021 12:14:52 No.13605950 Report

Quoted By:

I'll believe God plays with dice the moment someone shows me something that literally didn't follow anything, like a billiards ball just flying fucking straight up without anything acting on it. In reality the balls follow the laws of physics every time.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 05 Sep 2021 12:58:50 No.13606068 Report

Quoted By: >>13607126

>>13602742

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 05 Sep 2021 19:41:45 No.13607126 Report

Quoted By: >>13608091

>>13606068
Not the same. This is fully deterministic if you know the initial conditions with infinite precision.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 05 Sep 2021 20:04:46 No.13607209 Report

Quoted By:

>>13602844
>things aren't causal on the quantum scale
They are, though.
>>13602862
>it dismantles 90% of philosophy and religion up until this point
Wat.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 05 Sep 2021 20:17:16 No.13607250 Report

Quoted By:

>>13602925
A random one?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 05 Sep 2021 21:48:59 No.13607570 Report

Quoted By:

>>13602844
>There have been various experiments confirming randomness and ruling out hidden variables
Please point to a rigorous resource together with a passage which makes this claim. This is the first time I'm seeing this claim.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 05 Sep 2021 22:06:43 No.13607635 Report

Quoted By: >>13608097

Randomness is an epistemological property, not ontological. There is no such thing as "true randomness".

El Arcón

El Arcón Sun 05 Sep 2021 22:40:57 No.13607723 Report

Quoted By:

>>13602742
>How can something be completely random, yet causal?
If you don't know the exact condition, you can get random outcomes from causal evolutions.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 06 Sep 2021 01:23:20 No.13608091 Report

Quoted By:

>>13607126
if
if my aunt had a dick she'd be my uncle

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 06 Sep 2021 01:25:32 No.13608097 Report

Quoted By:

>>13607635
>There is no such thing as "true randomness".
wrong
https://youtu.be/lZ3bPUKo5zc?t=11m
start @11min
1st WTF @22min
completely random @24min <------------
2nd WTF @50min

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 06 Sep 2021 09:38:39 No.13609038 Report

Quoted By:

Dice are deterministic, but if you ran all possible and fair input variables as a linear graph in sequence, the output would fluctuate so rapidly and be distributed so evenly that a unassisted human can in no way predict the outcome. It's like, if you had a black box which gave you one of six return values, with the same distribution, if you input any sequence. Without cracking the algorithm, any new input will give essentially a random output, even though it's completely deterministic.

Anonymous

Anonymous Mon 06 Sep 2021 09:43:59 No.13609052 Report

Quoted By:

>>13602742
You can think of randomness as insufficient resolution in observation

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