/co/ - Comics & Cartoons » Thread #81222779

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Anonymous Tue 29 Mar 09:08:33 2016 No.81222779 View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>81222844 >>81222880 >>81223470 >>81224069 >>81224116 >>81224289 >>81224408 >>81225392

What the fucking hell did I just read?

I thought Wolverine being a terrible character was a recent thing.
But here he is in the mid-80s already being the most hypocritical piece of shit character I've ever seen.

Preventing the murder of a mass murderer by trying to murder your own teammate? Are you serious?
Rachel would've fucking died here if she wasn't OP as hell.
And for what? Selene literally kills two more people 5 minutes after this.

Dear god. And the other X-Men are just mildly irritated at this. Fuck.

X-Men Thread.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 29 Mar 2016 09:12:19 No.81222817 Report

Quoted By: >>81222880 >>81222910

Turns out stupid shit happened in the 80's too. Comics have always had dumb editorial decisions in them, it's not just a new thing.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Mar 2016 09:14:56 No.81222844 Report

Quoted By: >>81222942 >>81225349

>>81222779
Note that this was written in the 80's and in no way was this supposed to be or written to be a purely heroic act by Claremont. It is deliberately written as an act of hypocrisy on the part of Wolverine that he undertakes because he feels he has to do so, but also because at heart he's still a man of violence who uses violence to solve his problems.
Also I believe he was partially driven by the fear that a vengeance-driven teenage girl with Jean's powers who was willing to kill would ultimately be another Dark Phoenix, which pretty much the entire team frets over when it came to Rachel in this period.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Mar 2016 09:18:43 No.81222880 Report

Quoted By: >>81222942 >>81225349

>>81222779
>>81222817
Rachel's death was an editorially mandated thing too, so Claremont pretty much just had to get her killed one way or another.
Note that literally as soon as he got permission (when he started writing Excalibur) he brought her back and whenever he writes X-Men at all he always includes Rachel rather then Jean pretty much 100% of the time.

Rachel was replacement Jean but with Jean coming back for X-Factor they decided two of her (albiet in two different books with two different creative teams) was too much so they told Chris to off Rachel since "original X-Men are a team again" was the entire premise of X-Factor.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Mar 2016 09:21:44 No.81222910 Report

Quoted By: >>81223063

>>81222817
I'd eat Tigra.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 29 Mar 2016 09:25:11 No.81222942 Report

Quoted By: >>81222991 >>81223084 >>81225349

>>81222844
>It is deliberately written as an act of hypocrisy on the part of Wolverine that he undertakes because he feels he has to do so, but also because at heart he's still a man of violence who uses violence to solve his problems.
Yeah. I've been thinking about what the more sensible thing to do would've been.
I think Cyke as an example, probably would've still fought Rachel to prevent her from murdering, but he would've done it at the risk of his own life.
Wolverine defended Selene at the risk of Rachel's.

>>81222880
>Rachel's death was an editorially mandated thing too
So this is that part I've heard about. The one that makes you want to travel back in time and slap Marvel editorial around.

>they decided two of her was too much so they told Chris to off Rachel
I don't even get this. Apart from her powers, she's an entirely different character.
Man, is there anything X-Factor didn't fuck over?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Mar 2016 09:29:25 No.81222991 Report

Quoted By:

>>81222942
>Man, is there anything X-Factor didn't fuck over?
Not really, no. Not muh! was strong.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 29 Mar 2016 09:35:20 No.81223063 Report

Quoted By: >>81223105

>>81222910
Tigra would eat you

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Mar 2016 09:37:25 No.81223084 Report

Quoted By: >>81223755 >>81223776

>>81222942
>Wolverine defended Selene at the risk of Rachel's.
Even at this point in Claremont's writing where Logan is considerably less psychotic and much more idealistic he seems to have trouble grasping the idea of not going to extremes when acting.
>So this is that part I've heard about. The one that makes you want to travel back in time and slap Marvel editorial around.
Reputedly Jim Shooter hated the X-Men books because of how much attention they garnered and how little control he had over it due to the fast pace and subtle long-term plotting Claremont used meant it was next to impossible for him to veto story choices until they were already happening which meant the issue would be pretty much gutted and thus not get to the stands on time.
Shooter was kind of a control freak.
>I don't even get this. Apart from her powers, she's an entirely different character.
Agreed.
>Man, is there anything X-Factor didn't fuck over?
Not really.
A lot of really goofy-ass and very stereotypically "dark age" storylines happened during that period, though Uncanny X-Men was hardly free of that itself. Comics writers of the 80's just seemed to embrace nihilistic storylines.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Mar 2016 09:39:25 No.81223105 Report

Quoted By:

>>81223063
As long as we love each other.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Mar 2016 10:16:04 No.81223470 Report

Quoted By:

>>81222779
Man, I love 80's Romita Jr.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Mar 2016 10:44:57 No.81223755 Report

Quoted By: >>81223818

>>81223084
>Even at this point in Claremont's writing where Logan is considerably less psychotic and much more idealistic he seems to have trouble grasping the idea of not going to extremes when acting. And here I was just getting used to genuinely liking him. That Lady Deathstrike issue was cool, too.
I'm almost more disappointed in him going Schism-tier retard over Rachel getting sent to story limbo just when I started to really like her. At least Rachel will be back. I don't think I can ever take Logan seriously again after this.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Mar 2016 10:47:03 No.81223776 Report

Quoted By: >>81223836

>>81223084
>Even at this point in Claremont's writing where Logan is considerably less psychotic and much more idealistic he seems to have trouble grasping the idea of not going to extremes when acting.

And here I was just getting used to genuinely liking him. That Lady Deathstrike issue was cool, too.
I'm almost more disappointed in him going Schism-tier retard over Rachel getting sent to story limbo just when I started to really like her. At least Rachel will be back. I don't think I can ever take Logan seriously again after this.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Mar 2016 10:52:01 No.81223818 Report

Quoted By:

>>81223755
>I don't think I can ever take Logan seriously again after this.
He's a comic book character, one who hasn't been written particularly well in over 25 years at this point.
Claremont and Hama were the best at writing him (Larry Hama in particular is good at characters of his sort), and neither have done so in a very long time.
Basically, he wasn't really worth taking seriously since before you even heard of him as a little kid and you weren't even aware of it at the time.

At least here he's doing what he does because otherwise Shooter would force a stupider and even more pointless death on Rachel because he demanded she die in this arc.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Mar 2016 10:54:00 No.81223836 Report

Quoted By:

>>81223776
>And here I was just getting used to genuinely liking him.
If it helps you like his old self still, imagine Jim Shooter possessing his body and making him do something he doesn't actually want to do.
Because Claremont didn't want to do it but was editorially required to and he had a deadline to meet, so that's basically exactly what is happening.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Mar 2016 11:16:47 No.81224069 Report

Quoted By:

>>81222779
Remember when he made Rachel track Hope Summers, so he could snikt her? He used her the same way anti-mutants used her in her future.
And then he blamed her for tracking him and the Avengers when she joined Scott's side.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Mar 2016 11:20:21 No.81224116 Report

Quoted By: >>81224173

>>81222779
Rachel had a really bad track record of doing whatever the fuck she wanted at this point. Wolverine's case was that she can't assassinate people and be an X-men, pretending nothing she does is alright. Logan knows he's a killer, but he's actively trying to be better than that and does it primarily as sled defense, plus he has a savage animal side which makes that incredibly hard. Rachel just does shit because muh angst and feelings and in this instance was out for petty personal revenge.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Mar 2016 11:24:43 No.81224173 Report

Quoted By: >>81224225

>>81224116
Also Logan's pretty big on the idea of "I'm a killer, but I do what I do so other people don't have to be like me".

On one level you can interpret it as one rule for him, one rule for others but it actually makes sense for the most.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Mar 2016 11:27:20 No.81224205 Report

Quoted By: >>81224268

Context is the key here. Not that long ago Rachel stole the X-men's powers/essence/whatever, without their consent (I think she even used her powers to get couple to give them "willingly"), so she could go fight the Beyonder, out of sheer butthurt. She had also been acting like a drama queen and a cunt for a long time now and here she is sneaking into the Hellfire Club (the most dangerous enemy X-men had at this time, with whom they had a delicate truce going on), trying to assassinate one of the inner circle, for revenge. Wolverine maybe be a bit of a hypocrite, but he was trying to save her from from becoming a monster in his own brutal way.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Mar 2016 11:28:58 No.81224225 Report

Quoted By:

>>81224173
It's pretty apart in Larry Hama's issues of his own solo series that he's aware of the inherent hypocrisy of this double standard, but also considers himself to be not a good enough person to ever REALLY completely follow through on a hard "no killing" rule.
He basically works at redemption but on some level thinks he doesn't deserve it and thus focuses on using his willingness to employ lethal force on people he genuinely considers deserving of such treatment, usually ninjas and terrorists and shit like that.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Mar 2016 11:32:28 No.81224268 Report

Quoted By: >>81224322

>>81224205
Her time in Mojoworld really helps her mellow out.
And also gives her an appreciation for dressing quite literally like a whore, given her almost universal choice of civilian clothing in Excalibur being leather and revealing with lots of leg showing.

I guess being skinny and malnourished her whole life then coming out of Mojoworld looking like a 19-year-old version of her mother probably kind of shot her self-confidence up.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 29 Mar 2016 11:34:25 No.81224289 Report

Quoted By: >>81224665

>>81222779

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Mar 2016 11:37:05 No.81224322 Report

Quoted By: >>81224370

>>81224268
well that and Claremont being, well, Claremont.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Mar 2016 11:41:39 No.81224370 Report

Quoted By:

>>81224322
True that, but it's actually repeatedly made note of; Kitty for instance is forced to dress up like Rachel several times and every time finds it highly uncomfortable and seems to usually wear MUCH more conservative clothing by choice in Excalber compared to Rachel.
At one point while Doctor Who-ain't across the multiverse they're both dressed up as fairytale princesses and Rachel shifts the outfits to uh...well, fairytale stripper princesses and while she likes the change Kitty is clearly embarrassed.

Amusingly, it's revealed that Rachel's Phoenix costume is actually impossible to get into and out of without her powers. It had no zippers or anything because she always just shapes it out of random molecules of whatever she had on.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Mar 2016 11:45:31 No.81224408 Report

Quoted By: >>81224426 >>81224690

>>81222779
I always thought this was extreme, but it made sense.

If Rachel flips out she could accidentally do a dark phoenix and kill a planet or two.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Mar 2016 11:46:53 No.81224426 Report

Quoted By:

>>81224408
What's kinda funny is how she had a better track record of controlling Phoenix then...well, everyone else who's ever had it at this point.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Mar 2016 12:09:34 No.81224665 Report

Quoted By: >>81224688

>>81224289
Who makes all these comics?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Mar 2016 12:12:08 No.81224688 Report

Quoted By: >>81224891

>>81224665
http://waitingforthet.tumblr.com/

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Mar 2016 12:12:24 No.81224690 Report

Quoted By: >>81224700

>>81224408
>but it made sense
No it didn't. He just still had PTSD from JEEEEEAAAAAN! and was tripping on his newfound morality. Rachel may have been angry and confused, but wanting to kill Selene wasn't particularly unreasonable. It certainly didn't this.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Mar 2016 12:13:25 No.81224700 Report

Quoted By:

>>81224690
*it certainly didn't warrant this.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Mar 2016 12:32:25 No.81224891 Report

Quoted By:

>>81224688
>likes SG and Hellcat
>doesn't like Wonder-Man
Absolutely disgusting.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Mar 2016 13:14:56 No.81225349 Report

Quoted By:

>>81222942
>>81222844
I think it
>is deliberately written as an act of hypocrisy on the part of Wolverine

because
>>81222880
>Rachel's death was an editorially mandated thing too, so Claremont pretty much just had to get her killed

So he made sure to show that the act that led to her death was idiotic, but didn't make the character call it out so that editorial wouldn't otice

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Mar 2016 13:17:57 No.81225392 Report

Quoted By: >>81226365

>>81222779
She was turning dark phoenix anon

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Mar 2016 14:27:14 No.81226365 Report

Quoted By: >>81226500

>>81225392
No she wasn't. I'm not even sure the concept of Phoenix Force and "turning Dark Phoenix" was even in place at this point. I'm pretty damn certain noone has mentioned cosmic firebirds up to that point and Jean going mad after getting thoroughly mindfucked is nothing like this. The rest of Phoenix was just a power boost and pyrotechnics that apparently just came with the name Grey. There were no definitive rules to this stuff back then. Which is why you could have full-on Phoenix Rachel who still was somewhat limited in power.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 29 Mar 2016 14:36:40 No.81226500 Report

Quoted By:

>>81226365

yeah, wasn't the idea of a cosmic firebird introduced so that they could bring back Jean?
At that point that was just the highest mainfestation of Jean's and Rachel's own powers

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