/co/ - Comics & Cartoons » Thread #120099705

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Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 04:08:01 2021 No.120099705 View Reply Original Report

Do villains ever deserve redemption arcs? I always find the “gee, I’m sorry I killed thousands of people. I’ll be a good guy now.” Shit kind of ridiculous. They should be punished ! Tortured! Just because they decide to help out the good guys doesn’t mean they deserve any happiness without paying penance. Are there any stories where a hero tells a supposedly regretful villain to go fuck themself and enact some justice on them anyway?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 04:09:32 No.120099733 Report

Quoted By: >>120099741 >>120099746 >>120100595 >>120100876 >>120101681 >>120101887 >>120106745

>>120099705
It depends on the context.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 04:10:06 No.120099741 Report

Quoted By:

>>120099733
This

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 04:10:28 No.120099746 Report

Quoted By: >>120099808

>>120099733
>it all depends on whether the writing is actually good or not

This, so OP poses a question so vague it’s literally meaningless

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 04:13:31 No.120099801 Report

Quoted By: >>120106776

>>120099705
Scarlemagne from kipo is a good example. He did terrible things and tried to reform. That being said even until the end there were people who didn't trust him

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 04:13:46 No.120099808 Report

Quoted By: >>120100135 >>120100377 >>120106852

>>120099746
Fine, how about this: which redemption arcs have you found believable and which ones did you disagree with?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 04:15:51 No.120099843 Report

Quoted By: >>120100007 >>120100280 >>120100575 >>120101078 >>120101100

Redemption arcs are overrated. Nobody ever talks about the opposite of a redemption arc. I personally think that type of arc is more interesting.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 04:26:00 No.120100007 Report

Quoted By: >>120100788

>>120099843
>opposite of a redemption arc
Hero going bad? That almost seems harder to do without verging into try hard edgy bullshit. You know, like Millar.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 04:33:30 No.120100116 Report

Quoted By:

>>120099705
I feel the same way. I know that's an unpopular opinion, both in terms of general views of morality, I guess, and especially within any sort of fandom in this day and age.

IDK if I'm being autistic about it or if I'm just really hardline re: this part of my moral code. I just am honestly not into most villain redemption stories, even though generally I do enjoy villains when they're actually treated as villains. Like, villains with a backstory that justifies what they're doing is 100% fine, but those villains then getting a good ending and heroes being portrayed as bigots for not wanting to forgive them? That's fucked. The villain can get fucked.

Maybe I can accept it if the villain's path for self-improvement/redemption leads to them actually going through hell/eating shit, or if, like, they have to spend their entire life atoning for all their victims (because, honestly, if you killed a bunch of people it's what you deserve). But honestly? It's probably easier and more palatable to me if they just show their redemption through sacrificing their life, and then fuck off forever.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 04:34:59 No.120100135 Report

Quoted By: >>120100585 >>120105472

>>120099808
Not him but sure. One I believe? Unironically, Harley Quinn, or at least with the recent characterization they went with. She realized that it wasn't just the lie of love that sent her off the deep end, it was getting high off the freedom of consequence and then falling so far she had to take a good look at herself realizing just how much of a piece of shit she had been. Ever since she's been trying to make Batman proud.

Now one I don't buy? Black Adam. I can sympathize that he was a slave with nothing, that he lost his family, but that doesn't validate what he's become and what he does. Black Adam is only "benevolent" to his people because they worship him like a living god. He thinks just because of his background and powers he has the right to rule the planet. So what if he temporarily put his conquest aside to join the JLA? He'd flip the first chance to overthrow Earth would come up

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 04:37:03 No.120100169 Report

Quoted By: >>120101698 >>120102770

>villain this
>villain that
>villain villain villain
How to tell your heroes are boring shite: the character study

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 04:43:30 No.120100256 Report

Quoted By:

>>120099705
It all depends on the actions of the character and what they can do to redeem themselves.

The more evil a character and is hated by the cast, the more a person is likely to invest in a good character arc for them and any action towards this end goal of redemption and be accepted is viewed as a positive because they have to EARN our approval.

Lean towards more annoyance/generally not good characters there's less motivation or even warrant for them to have a character arc because they haven't necessarily done anything bad enough for you to care.

The more Evil a villain is the more readers generally care about a redemptive are if that makes sense?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 04:44:54 No.120100280 Report

Quoted By: >>120107353

>>120099843
So, Simon from Infinity Train?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 04:46:01 No.120100298 Report

Quoted By:

>Prime, grant me mercy! I beg of you...
>You, who are without mercy, now beg for it? I thought you were made of sterner stuff.
And then Hot Rod totally beefed it

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 04:50:58 No.120100377 Report

Quoted By:

>>120099705
>>120099808
I thought Bojack's finale had a pretty interesting's and great one despite how divisive many people found it.

Death is often times used as a cheap tactic of redemption when the character is too vile to be redeemed in life, and the narrative heavily pushes in the implication that he will die. But the final twist of him NOT dying and being punished in prison is on that oddly enough not used often in narratives.

Seriously, how common is a villain redeemed via a noble sacrifice rather than, ya know, going to court for his misdeeds?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 04:52:13 No.120100402 Report

Quoted By:

>>120099705
In a sense, all of Bojack Horseman is a redemption arc for a villain. And he kinda gets what he deserves in the end.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 04:58:32 No.120100520 Report

Quoted By: >>120100579 >>120107220 >>120107253

>>120099705
First off redemption does not mean free from consequences like the garbage redemptions like Magneto, Vegeta and Catra, if a villain murder or try to murder a lot of people it's simply not plausible for them to walk freely in the streets without someone trying to get revenge, they will still be wanted criminals, they will still have a lot of people witha reason to got after them.

Second you must show some trait that would lead them to redemption like doubts, guilt, the fact they believe their evil boss is a good person etc.

Third you must give them an arc, rather than changing instantly they should slowly change over the episodes.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 05:01:26 No.120100575 Report

Quoted By: >>120101097

>>120099843
Heroes becoming evil? Believe it or not that is something that should be extremely common like I'm talking the most basic story type in the world.

Heroes are honestly to take a line from The Incredibles "maids" for civilization and society. You have to wonder do humans deserve to be protected and saved? Honestly given how STUPID people are in reality by repeating failed experiments like Communism, humans deserve to suffer and be murdered.

One of the reasons I enjoy the story of the entire Mega Man franchise is humans got exactly what they deserved. Brilliant human scientists invented robots. The robots proved to be dangerous so the scientists invent robots who truly have free will simply because they were curious and then those superior robots rebel against humans who are in every way their inferiors even without the Maverick Virus and across the years more superior robots are created leading to a genocide step by step. And finally humans need to sacrifice some of their humanity to continue existing in society and then a catastrophe happens and the only alternative surviving humans even have is to start this long term plan to bring back normal humans in the world but by the time the plan is initiated? The fake humans who are in every way superior to raw humans have taken over the world and basically the Mega Man of that point of the story tells actual humans to go fuck themselves and destroys their plans twice ensuring standard humans remain extinct forever. The price of being stupid should indeed be death. Capcom may not have intended this to be the way the story should have gone, it's still hilariously amusing that it did turn out this way.

Mankind is honestly not worth saving. Heroes in general if written realistic would have a boiling point where they are fed up with stupid humanity putting itself in danger hence Mr Incredible's line "Can the world just stay safe already? I just cleaned this mess!"

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 05:01:35 No.120100579 Report

Quoted By:

>>120100520
And fourth you must give the heroes a valid reason to tolerate or like them otherwise it would be better if they don't trust the ex villain

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 05:02:08 No.120100585 Report

Quoted By: >>120100640

>>120100135
That's kind of missing the context of Black Adam. He's got a fundamentally different moral outlook than modern society - a Bronze Age king brought forth to the modern day.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 05:02:22 No.120100595 Report

Quoted By:

>>120099733
This.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 05:04:39 No.120100640 Report

Quoted By: >>120100957

>>120100585
That's a fair point I can concede to, Anon. However one could also argue that despite Teth Adam's black and white morality, and the old ways he's set in, are a defining flaw he chooses to remain in. The world moved on, and what did Adam do? Put his country in a bottle, and made himself king. He doesn't care, and he believes his power validates his choices

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 05:05:50 No.120100657 Report

Quoted By:

>>120099705
I'm fine with a villian changing their ways and becoming good. What annoys me is when an author then has them die in a heroic sacrifice so they don't need to actually think about the long term implications of a redeemed villain in their story.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 05:08:21 No.120100708 Report

Quoted By: >>120104107

>broke
transparently "redeeming" antagonists and making them share the goals and beliefs of the protagonist
>bespoke
creating more context/spinning-off more information about a villain and revealing more about their own life and worldview independent of the protagonist, creating a complex figure instead of just a cardboard cutout for the protagonist to foil

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 05:13:10 No.120100788 Report

Quoted By:

>>120100007
It real life it happens way more often....seemingly.

Problem is most of those people didn’t change, their situations did, and if it was told from their POV you’d know that

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 05:13:11 No.120100789 Report

Quoted By: >>120101022 >>120101029

>>120099705
The only time villains deserve redemption is when their crimes aren't monstrous like say thieves and scammers. They also need to want to become better as well.

If the villain kills someone it can't be too many people. And the villain would need to actively prove they want redemption. However the problem with these villain redemption bullshit is that the villains are obviously horrible dangerous people who don't even seek to improve themselves.

It's easy to point at a villain like say Joker who is a mass murderer and insane, but he's not the example that bothers me. The examples that bother me are characters like the Turks from Final Fantasy 7. Those pieces of human shit are yakuza mass murderers who don't even have the insanity defense. They mass murder innocent people whether it's the classic game or the remake (and in the remake Rude actually has the nerve to say he's a good person despite killing thousands of innocents). And follow up media for Final Fantasy 7 depicts them as funny comedic characters akin to Team Rocket from Pokemon. What bullshit. If anything given their murderous careers they should have lots of people hunting them down to lynch them and it's disgustingly bad writing that the main characters allow them to live even though they do not deserve to live.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 05:19:51 No.120100876 Report

Quoted By:

>>120099733

this, the cause of the redemption, context of crime, and the talent of the writer are also factors.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 05:23:28 No.120100933 Report

Quoted By:

>>120099705
Just once I'd like to see a redeemed villain help the heroes then get executed once the crisis is over. Too many stories cop out and have something else kill the former villain so the heroes don't have to deal with it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 05:25:16 No.120100957 Report

Quoted By:

>>120100640
Oh, he certainly works from a might makes right and eye for an eye stance. The thing is, he doesn't really see it as a flaw on his part. Rather, he sees the world's morality as having devolved into sophistry. What makes him a villain rather than an anti-hero is his hypocrisy and corruption.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 05:26:05 No.120100971 Report

Quoted By:

>>120099705
My villain neither deserves nor wants redemption. Because he absolutely believes he is right and is willing to sacrifice (and has sacrificed) those he loves to achieve what he believes to be right.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 05:28:44 No.120101022 Report

Quoted By:

>>120100789
>The only time villains deserve redemption is when their crimes aren't monstrous like say thieves and scammers.
Dunno about that, individuals can join terrible militias and goverments due to reasons they consider righteous like protecting their own people from imminent destruction, those people joined the bad guys due to being misguided in a desperate situation so they could naturally find redemption through the truth.

However they shouldn't have a happy ending, after you cross a line redemption is only possible through tragedy.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 05:29:08 No.120101029 Report

Quoted By:

>>120100789
>their crimes aren't monstrous like say thieves and scammers
idk anon, characters like Kitsune from Usagi Yojimbo I can't wait to see get killed or at least have their hands cut off.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 05:33:05 No.120101078 Report

Quoted By:

>>120099843
agree, but a needs a talented writer to pull off.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 05:33:59 No.120101097 Report

Quoted By: >>120101121

>>120100575
>Heroes are honestly to take a line from The Incredibles "maids" for civilization and society. You have to wonder do humans deserve to be protected and saved? Honestly given how STUPID people are in reality by repeating failed experiments like Communism, humans deserve to suffer and be murdered.
You sound like an insufferable knowitall.

>they're all so stupid I'm just better

Yeah, with that mentality of course villainy is inevitable. A hero wouldn't think that way to begin with.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 05:34:11 No.120101100 Report

Quoted By: >>120101183 >>120103305

>>120099843
There was Young Justice's third season where it's Geo-Force, not Terra, who becomes a murderer and gives in to his anger. The thing that unfortunately muddles it is that, despite that anger being genuine, he was manipulated into acting like that. So, either he's going to remain a villain next season or he'll have to apologize for his actions and have to redeem himself for his act, even though he didn't consent to do it.

All this, mind you, while the heroes have a mind rapist on the team who never faced any consequences and who, while no longer doing mind rape, still justifies doing sketchy things to her friends.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 05:35:36 No.120101121 Report

Quoted By: >>120101164

>>120101097
They also would NOT be human.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 05:38:42 No.120101164 Report

Quoted By:

>>120101121
I don't think you've met enough humans to make that call anon. How many firefighters and cops do you know?
>inb4 my best friend/relative is a cop anon and they're all like him

Yes obviously your pov is possible since you are a person and have it and it stands to reason that other people somewhere would think as you do. But every hero inevitably coming to the realization of:
>everyone is stupid and should die
Is itself unrealistic, absolutist and kind of dumb.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 05:40:19 No.120101183 Report

Quoted By: >>120101377 >>120101989 >>120102726

>>120101100
I hate to be that person, but...
>male, get manipulated into committing murder, is now a villain
>female, purposefully mindrapes, manipulative, is still considered good
Female characters seem to be able to get away with a lot more things than males.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 05:51:46 No.120101369 Report

Quoted By: >>120101505 >>120101776 >>120102126 >>120104193 >>120107459

>>120099705
I'm sure some may disagree, but I find refreshing when the villain's motives/back story, or more of the world is revealed, making their actions more-less a shade of grey. Or just flipping who is the villain or hero of the story entirely.

I feel like the whole 'good v bad' shtick is really over-played. Especially when it feels like the writer just went; "oh, this guy is the bad guy, because he's the bad guy, and this guy is the good guy because hes the good guy". And in the end, the "hero" like genocides a whole planet, kills who-knows how many bystanders, kills 5000 henchmen who were just random schmucks trying to make a living, all to save some chick he met the other day.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 05:53:07 No.120101377 Report

Quoted By: >>120101436 >>120101560

>>120101183
That's because women have superior self preservation instincts than men, women are more selfish.

And men are retards who think with their erections so of course they'll excuse an evil cunt.

The human species can be summarized as a giant vagina.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 05:58:24 No.120101436 Report

Quoted By: >>120101474

>>120101377
Nigga are you high?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 06:01:48 No.120101474 Report

Quoted By:

>>120101436
Since when do you have to be high to speak the truth?

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 06:04:22 No.120101505 Report

Quoted By:

>>120101369
Pretty much this. When the villain has no other character outside of a greed to rule over everything its hard to even view them as a character. A lot of media will go the easy brownie points with having the villain being pushed to the dark side. pic related but was done pretty satisfactory
I'd really like it if villains could just have more radical philosophical views that could justify their villainy other than: only the strong should survive

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 06:08:19 No.120101560 Report

Quoted By: >>120101781 >>120101816 >>120102137 >>120108049

>>120101377
https://youtu.be/y2GwrR-4Q9E

>>120099705
Redemption arcs only work if the writer has a good grasp of morality instead of just saying "killing bad". I'm so fucking tired of redemption arcs. I want cathartic retribution. I want Dracula completely disowned by his family. I want Isaac be brutally murdered by Dracula and have his soul be dragged to Hell.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 06:17:11 No.120101681 Report

Quoted By:

>>120099733
Pretty much that. They did a great job with Sandman in the '80s and '90s because he was never a particularly evil or irredeemable person and was always a pretty sympathetic character. So seeing him turn his life around and join up first with Silver Sable and then be a reserve Avenger and ally of Spider-Man. Then Byrne in his autism completely erased it. The Flash did a good job of it with Pied Piper and Trickster since neither were particularly evil either.

Shit like trying to make Apocalypse a good guy is beyond stupid.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 06:18:41 No.120101698 Report

Quoted By:

>>120100169
Is that you, moralfag autist?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 06:25:12 No.120101776 Report

Quoted By:

>>120101369
>I feel like the whole 'good v bad' shtick is really over-played
A villain can have reasons to be a villain and still be a bad person. Mr Freeze only want his wife to be saved and to be able to live like a normal person, he's not sadistic, he's not proud of being a criminal, all he wants is a normal life with his loved one, he's still a bad person tho since he was willing to hurt and steal from innocents to cure his wife, escape prison and then feed himself as a wanted criminal.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 06:25:23 No.120101781 Report

Quoted By: >>120101816

>>120101560
The more I see Isaac, the more sick I get of his shit.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 06:27:05 No.120101811 Report

Quoted By: >>120101845 >>120102019

I have an idea for a story where the character, while kinda scummy, wasn't exactly malevolent. Just a dumbass kid who set a fire that went out of control and is extremely remorseful over it and tries to make up for it by helping people as an adult.
Is that a villain redemption story? What pitfalls should I try to avoid to make it work better?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 06:27:24 No.120101816 Report

Quoted By:

>>120101560
>>120101781
also: lol I've been seeing that image posted here for months, but it was only just now that I realized that him hating sunshine/warmth is actually a canon detail from the show and not just shitposting

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 06:29:35 No.120101845 Report

Quoted By:

>>120101811
>Is that a villain redemption story?
No it's just a guy

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 06:33:11 No.120101887 Report

Quoted By:

>>120099733
Fpbp

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 06:42:41 No.120101989 Report

Quoted By:

>>120101183
Like irl, *cough* amber heard *cough*

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 06:44:14 No.120102010 Report

Quoted By: >>120102030 >>120104778

>>120099705
>They should be punished ! Tortured!
The functions of the prison system are taught in.. middle school, I think? High school at the latest. Which functions do you think it would serve if the villain is shown to change his/her views and make sacrifices? Incapacitation is irrelevant (changed his views), rehabilitation is either pointless (already happened) or requires more delicate approach (friendly environment + psych help), retribution is a moral need that is not always shared by the society (pretty much all major ethics questions do not have a one-sided answer), restitution is indeed good and usually happens in the cartoon/comic if the villain is able to do it.

The reason IRL is different is because 1) we don't have the resources to use a delicate personalised approach for rehabilitation; 2) irl people do not change their views easily and are often egotistical and are not willing to make sacrifices. Comics/cartoons are made up and are often idealistic. As they are idealistic, such conflict resolutions are the ones we should STRIVE FOR, not fucking roll everything back to the shithole reality.

Besides, it's /co/ so more often than not it's not the ethics or morality that's bothering posters, but just plain bias or hatred towards characters because they are gay or something, so discussing it here unironically is a waste of time.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 06:45:26 No.120102019 Report

Quoted By: >>120102163

>>120101811
Acknowledging and learning from mistakes isn't a redemption it's character growth. The "problem" with villain redemption is when people feel they do something that is irredeemable or don't show enough remorse. In your case, by most accounts, it's neither. Just don't make sure there is enough continued conflict after the first event.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 06:46:19 No.120102030 Report

Quoted By: >>120102612

>>120102010
brb gonna go shoot up an elementary school and then say i'm really sorry and regret what i did and donate a bunch of money to charity or something

can't arrest me now

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 06:47:17 No.120102037 Report

Quoted By: >>120102120 >>120102144 >>120102965

Redemption Arcs are kinda boring
I'd rather have a Villain make a sacrifice and go out with a big bang rather than being reduced to a side character.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 06:48:25 No.120102046 Report

Quoted By:

>>120099705
Peter has been telling people Venom is a fucker and nobody should trust him, which obviously doesnt work since the Avenger is full of murderers and dictators

As a matter of fact, Spidey himself is a murderer

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 06:49:48 No.120102062 Report

Quoted By:

>>120099705
I like the idea of a redemption arc, as I think we as a society need to think more about forgiveness and putting it in art will help with that. But I insist that any such thing deal with the hard facts, it is not some light switch moment they have to learn. Which is why brutal killings of more then a few people or mass genocide seem impossible to forgive, but one murder or something I can see more so if they thought they were helping.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 06:52:49 No.120102092 Report

Quoted By: >>120102120

>>120099705
Redemptions are gay. Temporary truces made in order to handle a common enemy are patrician.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 06:56:15 No.120102120 Report

Quoted By:

>>120102092
>>120102037
This is one of the reasons I hated the adventure time finale.
There was an easy way to kill off uncle Gumbald by having him try to fight a chaos god while still retaining his pompus personality.
Instead he's stuck as a dum dum while turncoat Aunt Lolly gets a free pass for no fucking reason.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 06:57:05 No.120102126 Report

Quoted By:

>>120101369
>I feel like the whole 'good v bad' shtick is really over-played.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 06:58:11 No.120102137 Report

Quoted By:

>>120101560
>you pile of secrets

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 06:59:16 No.120102144 Report

Quoted By: >>120102166

>>120102037
This

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 07:00:57 No.120102161 Report

Quoted By: >>120102193

>>120099705
>“gee, I’m sorry I killed thousands of people. I’ll be a good guy now.”

How often is it actually this stark? Vegeta is the only major example off the top of my head and he was more tolerated than truly forgiven until all of the characters collectively had their IQs halved in Super. I can't think of any other big examples of genuine mass murderers turning buddy buddy.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 07:01:12 No.120102163 Report

Quoted By: >>120104226 >>120106706

>>120102019
>Acknowledging and learning from mistakes isn't a redemption it's character growth.
The problem is what to do after your villain acknowledges he is wrong and stops doing the thing. Do you kill off the suddenly remorseful guy? Or do you let him live and receive the natural consequences of his actions? I say the latter is the braver approach.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 07:01:24 No.120102166 Report

Quoted By: >>120102180 >>120102221

>>120102144
This was a shitty ending.
They should've kept Darkseid dead, his death was perfect.
>her, loser.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 07:03:05 No.120102180 Report

Quoted By: >>120102286

>>120102166
faggot

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 07:04:22 No.120102193 Report

Quoted By:

>>120102161
Venom off the top of my head
Magneto, well all Xmen villains nowadays actually
They tried to make Doom into bootleg Ironman before but that didnt work so well
Loki

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 07:07:18 No.120102221 Report

Quoted By:

>>120102166
Shut up it was kino

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 07:11:43 No.120102262 Report

Quoted By: >>120103228 >>120106149

>>120099705
>Do villains ever deserve redemption arcs?
Yes, if someone truly feels remorse and is willing to be a good person and help others, why not?

>They should be punished ! Tortured!
Why? What does that accomplish? They'll only become more depraved and cruel.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 07:13:39 No.120102286 Report

Quoted By: >>120102333

>>120102180
No, you.
JLU is overrated crap.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 07:16:38 No.120102311 Report

Quoted By: >>120104792

Redemptions are good

Villains not facing proper consequences for their actions due to redemption is bad

If a villain was a petty thief or a conman then being forgiven after saving the day is an option, if they were a murderer they will have to face life in prison or a life as a fugitive after helping the heroes, you simply can't erase the killing of an innocent no matter how many lives you saved after that.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 07:19:08 No.120102333 Report

Quoted By:

>>120102286

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 07:47:09 No.120102612 Report

Quoted By: >>120102717 >>120102735

>>120102030
>a textbook strawman

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 07:54:27 No.120102697 Report

Quoted By:

>>120099705
Harry Osborn tried to become a hero once.
Peter beat the shit out of him showing that he'd wind up hurt or killed.
Harry went back to being a villain.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 07:56:13 No.120102717 Report

Quoted By: >>120102735

>>120102612
aside from mentioning killing kids, I think shooting up a school, death-toll-wise, is pretty much equivalent to the murders the post I was responding to was suggesting characters should just walk for because they say they sowwy :(.

like, assuming they (or you I guess) were talking about murders, that is. if they stole some shit, then yeah, okay, fine, they don't need to spend life in prison if they're now trying to turn their life around. if they killed someone else, though (and often multiple people, in the case of villains), it just feels really repugnant to say that just flipping the switch from EVIL to GOOD means their previous actions just don't count now

fuck the victims' families, I guess, Former Mass Murderer is officially 2 Smart 4 Prison

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 07:57:03 No.120102726 Report

Quoted By:

>>120101183
Not that guy, but I still think M'gann's bullshit is going to be exposed to the Justice League and the general public and blow up in her face big time, either in season 4 or somewhere else. I pointed out the same double standard with how Dick treated Arsenal/OG Roy after he saved everyone's ass, but the recent radio play actually had Artemis override Dick's decision and gave Roy another chance.

It just feels like it's too much of a coincidence that she keeps escaping consequences. Plus, why even keep Queen Bee around if she barely did anything in seasons 2 and 3 unless they were planning something huge with her as well.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 07:58:04 No.120102735 Report

Quoted By:

>>120102612
>>120102717
and i guess yeah, you could argue: "but what if their family was poor :( and they were in a gang :( and they had to kill :( but now they want to be good"

then I'd argue that narratively that character probably wasn't meant to be/presented as a villain in the first place, and so it's not an equivalent situation either

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 07:59:02 No.120102747 Report

Quoted By:

>>120099705
the western idea of redemption arcs are cringe. the anime idea of "you killed 100000 people but then i beat you up and we're buddies now so it's cool" is based

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 08:01:06 No.120102770 Report

Quoted By: >>120107317

>>120100169
what do you expect when most western heroes just react to what the villain plans?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 08:21:17 No.120102965 Report

Quoted By:

>>120102037
See, that feels lazy, though. The villain gets to escape actual accountability in such a clean, clear-cut manner. The villain doesn't have to be a side character, though. Their redemption has to be a continuous moment. They might meet people who forgive them and people who won't. They'll need to make something to repair the damage they've done. They might be tempted to go back to their own ways. You can do so much more in that redemption story without just killing them off or making them a grumpy uncle who barely appears.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 08:54:26 No.120103228 Report

Quoted By:

>>120102262
Cant be depraved and cruel if you are dead

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 09:02:39 No.120103305 Report

Quoted By: >>120103534

>>120101100
It wasn't so much manipulation as it was removing his inhibitions. It's like a guy getting drunk and then crashing his car. He's still responsible for what happened. It's not like it was mind control.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 09:24:32 No.120103512 Report

Quoted By:

>>120099705
Redemption is more difficult to pull off the more serious the story or grander the villian is. A decent example of a "redemption" for me, albeit in a more silly setting, is Lord Genome in Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann.
in the final battle, he gets a moment to shine as he absorbs the Anti Spirals Infinity Big Bang Storm, sacrificing himself to turn it into raw spiral energy for Simon and the Gang to turntable

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 09:25:36 No.120103522 Report

Quoted By:

>>120099705
rarely but california want you to bemieve all humans are mahcines from the same factory, it makes it easier to send you to the amazon dungeon

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 09:26:55 No.120103534 Report

Quoted By:

>>120103305
By that metaphor, is it that like a guy crashing his car because he got drunk because some other guy secretly spiked his drink that he drank while driving.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 10:45:40 No.120104107 Report

Quoted By:

>>120100708
Bingo. Redemption arcs don't suck because people who aren't real aren't being punished for killing other people who aren't real, they suck because most of 'em feel like the villain got brainwashed by the fucking Care Bear Stare.

Best is when that information that lays the groundwork for them switching sides is already there from the beginning though.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 10:56:37 No.120104193 Report

Quoted By:

>>120101369
The word you're looking for is antagonist

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 11:00:54 No.120104226 Report

Quoted By: >>120107753

>>120102163
Wouldn't someone who really realized they did a bad thing be willing to face the punishment?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 12:26:02 No.120104778 Report

Quoted By:

>>120102010

Striving for idealism is a sure fire way to be dishonest to the audience about how the world works.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 12:27:44 No.120104792 Report

Quoted By:

>>120102311
What if they bring their victims back to life?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 13:27:01 No.120105472 Report

Quoted By:

>>120100135
But she murdered people with a joke on her lips.
She is still exceedingly upbeat and joking

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 14:16:45 No.120106149 Report

Quoted By: >>120106632

>>120102262
>Yes, if someone truly feels remorse and is willing to be a good person and help others, why not?
Are you some sort of retarded faggot or something? If someone has brought pain and suffering to others, why do they deserve to have any kind of happiness? You want to REWARD horrific acts? Fine, I hope everyone around you dies horribly so we can see your supposedly Christ-like forgiveness as you give the people who hurt them everything you’ve got so they can be happy afterwards, idiot.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 14:25:05 No.120106264 Report

Quoted By: >>120106650

OP here, I asked this because I’ve been reading through Invincible and find peoples’ treatment of the Viltirumites ridiculous. “Well golly, we’ll let them live on Earth and they’ll have kids and learn to be nice people! Then everything will be OK.” Except these guys have spent thousands of year wrecking the known universe, killing billions. But apparently that’s OK as long as they love their kids. Seems stupid to me that nobody wants them to atone for the shit they’d done previously. Kind of reminds me of the Voltron Netflix series where the Galra got off without any punishment because they went “oh, oops! We’re not bad anymore!” When their whole species deserved to be wiped out of the universe.
I’d like to read a series where someone actually serves up some justice.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 14:28:39 No.120106324 Report

Quoted By: >>120106423 >>120106558

Justice isn’t real and torture is evil. Rehabilitation should be the point of correctional systems, and while a turnaround like that in some fiction where the villain just turns straight up good on their own isn’t something that happens all that often in real life, there’s no purpose to them suffering other than to make other bad people feel better about some made up cosmic force called justice or karma.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 14:34:46 No.120106423 Report

Quoted By: >>120106512

>>120106324
So you can do whatever you want to others and you deserve to be happy regardless of what you’ve done because punishment is silly? In fact, anyone who insists on any kind of punishment is the bad guy?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 14:39:38 No.120106512 Report

Quoted By:

>>120106423
Punishment for its own sake is silly, yeah. It accomplishes nothing. Wanting to see someone suffer because they did something heinous is human, not evil, but so are a lot of things that we don’t act upon. Bad people becoming better is better than bad people having bad things happen to them.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 14:41:55 No.120106558 Report

Quoted By:

>>120106324
Hi Silver Quil.
You are still a pussy.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 14:43:22 No.120106593 Report

Quoted By:

>>120099705
To be honest, in kid cartoons, you can’t have a show end with a villain getting tortured or decapitated if they’re genuinely sorry and regrets their actions. Even if they deserve it, standards and regulations wouldn’t allow it. And I get it, kids should probably not watch shows about cruel punishments and stories about empathy would be better for them, but the issue modern cartoons have with redemption is that they always gloss over the actions of the villain and how that should affect the conflict in the series.
We all know the redemptions in Tangled, Steven Universe and She-Ra suck ass, but the core problem is not that the characters were beyond redemption. Conceptually, redeeming a terrible person responsible for the misery of many characters is a cool idea because you would go into the themes of “how do you redeem yourself when you go too far?”. In real life, many people have divisive thoughts over if people who made mistakes years ago and regret them should be forgiven or not, and these shows had the opportunity to explore that.
But they didn’t, these shows redeemed these characters as if they were never really that bad. And because of that, their redemptions suck. Why do you make the effort to make these villains so despicable if by the end none of their evil actions are ever acknowledged?
I would have no issue with the redemptions of the Diamonds and Catra if their arcs actually acknowledged the things they did and how it harmed the way their lives will be now. Instead, they just toss away all the seriousness for the sake of toned down adventures where they are treated as “cute” like if what they did before didn’t matter.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 14:45:43 No.120106632 Report

Quoted By: >>120106942

>>120106149
>Giving people the chance to atone for their actions is 'Christ-like.'
It's really not

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 14:46:45 No.120106650 Report

Quoted By: >>120106813

>>120106264
I haven’t read that comic you’re talking about, but the Galra were evil because their leader was evil. Once their bad leadership went away, the race has a chance to begin again. We are shown they aren’t all that bad, and the ones that are evil are that way because of how their leaders made them that way in their new order.
It’s like saying Germany should be nuked because of WWII

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 14:50:05 No.120106706 Report

Quoted By: >>120106755

>>120102163
>Do you kill off the suddenly remorseful guy? Or do you let him live and receive the natural consequences of his actions? I say the latter is the braver approach.
Problem is no villain receives the natural consequences of their actions anymore. That’s because writers make the heroes extremely forgiving and empathetic characters so they can forgive and gloss over the actions of the villain.
Modern animation writers would unironically make a character commit genocide and be forgiven because said genocide happened off screen with characters the hero never knew. Also because they had a sad past and they’re queer.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 14:52:48 No.120106745 Report

Quoted By:

>>120099733
In the case of lesser villains who never do anything that bad, yes, context saves their butt. Some thief or sidekick who’s worst crime is attempted murder (aka what every villain in fiction tries to do) can be easily forgiven with no real reason to punish or berate them too much.
However, I would say unredeemably horrendous villains COULD have interesting redemption arcs, but only if they actually acknowledge their actions. Which is something modern stories never do.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 14:53:33 No.120106755 Report

Quoted By: >>120106889

>>120106706
That sounds more like a problem with bad writing than with the idea of redemption itself though.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 14:55:14 No.120106776 Report

Quoted By:

>>120099801
I think they did a good job killing him (even if the way he died was stupid) because he did go too far, and the writers were self aware enough to realize their happy ending would be awful with the tyrant who made so many of the mute races miserable around. He had to die, even if he became a better person there was no other way. And I’m very happy they went that direction.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 14:57:43 No.120106813 Report

Quoted By: >>120106871

>>120106650
>It’s like saying Germany should be nuked because of WWII
It shouldn't? They've proven to be the most evil people in human existence. Of course they should be wiped out. The only problem with doing that now is all the immigrants who had nothing to do with WWII. But I don't think anyone would have considered it a bad thing right after WWII to rid the world of such a menace.
Sadly, faggots like you were around to say "that's ok, they deserve another chance to be evil."

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 15:00:11 No.120106852 Report

Quoted By: >>120107037

>>120099808
Believable: Hugo and Jamack (Kipo), Baron Draxum (Rise of TMNT), Peridot (SU, the only character with a proper redemption in that shit show), Kevin (ben 10 reboot), Cameron Campbell (Camp Camp)
Not believable: Catra and Hordak (She-Ra), Grace (Infinity Train), the Diamonds, Spinel and Lapis (SU), Cassandra (Tangled)
Notice how most of the good ones are from sillier shows and the bad ones from the serious ones.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 15:01:19 No.120106871 Report

Quoted By: >>120106942

>>120106813
>Believing unironically Germany should be nuked
Ok faggot, maybe you need a redemption arc

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 15:01:41 No.120106876 Report

Quoted By:

I wish Mr. A would stop making covert threads

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 15:02:29 No.120106889 Report

Quoted By:

>>120106755
Of course, but if you notice a trend then that probably should tell you to stop. If modern cartoon writers can’t do good redemption arcs, then maybe we should stop having them for a while.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 15:06:01 No.120106942 Report

Quoted By: >>120106986 >>120107075 >>120107078

>>120106871
Go back to /pol where you Nazi sympathizers are welcome.
>>120106632
Atoning and forgiving are two different things, retard.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 15:09:10 No.120106986 Report

Quoted By:

>>120106942
Then why are you getting mad at the post that describes someone atoning for their actions instead of just being mindlessly forgiven?

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 15:12:21 No.120107037 Report

Quoted By: >>120107072 >>120107097

>>120106852
More serious shows are harder to have redemption arcs that work simply because its much more likely that the bad guy in question had done something really awful and can't be brushes aside.

If the heroes fight the bad guy every week and no one really gets hurt, just some stuff gets broken, redemption is easy to swallow as long as theres a good reason for it.

But if the bad guy in question slaughters 80,000 people and laughs about it, it doesn't matter how sad their backstory is. They are as a mass murderer. Any redemption arc they get is going to be extremely unsatisfying, because we know they don't deserve it. Their crimes are unforgivable.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 15:14:22 No.120107072 Report

Quoted By:

>>120107037

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 15:14:43 No.120107075 Report

Quoted By: >>120107486

>>120106942
>all germans are nazis
Wow

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 15:14:57 No.120107078 Report

Quoted By:

>>120106942
>all germans are nazis
Wow

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 15:16:04 No.120107097 Report

Quoted By:

>>120107037
I would say modern cartoons make villains that are more emotionally or physically abusive rather than murderous assholes, which is still a pretty bad thing to gloss over, especially in She-Ra

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 15:22:39 No.120107220 Report

Quoted By: >>120107332

>>120100520
I think Vegeta's redemption is ok. He was still a huge asshole in Cell Saga and nobody really wanted to hang out with him except Trunks, and Trunks had his pedestal for Vegeta shattered because of how bad his dad was

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 15:24:29 No.120107253 Report

Quoted By:

>>120100520
Fourth, the character has to be either better or at least as good of a character post redemption. If they were better off as villains, don’t redeem them.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 15:27:51 No.120107317 Report

Quoted By:

>>120102770
>Hmm, the Joker escaped again. Guess I'll just wait till a couple people die, then try to determine what the comedic irony of their cause of death was before trying to find him.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 15:28:38 No.120107332 Report

Quoted By: >>120107497

>>120107220
>I think Vegeta's redemption is ok
His arc is dumb because a lot of what happened was the result of the needs of the writers instead of natural actions. It’s hard for me to believe Vegeta wouldn’t want to conquer Earth or another planet with Goku and Frieza gone, or at least search the dragon balls for immortality. It’s even harder for me to believe Bulma would want to fuck the guy who’s responsible for the deaths of her ex boyfriend and some of her friends.
The problem is also none of the heroes ever call him out or criticize him when he fucks up. After the Cell fiasco, he’s still allowed to be part of their team despite being responsible for the fate of the planet being a risk.
The only time I think it worked was in the Buu saga where he died. Death is the ultimate consequence and once he was brought back he basically had a fresh new start. And he never went back to being too evil ever again after that.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 15:28:39 No.120107333 Report

Quoted By:

>>120099705
Make a villain cool or hot enough and nobody will mind of you redeem them even if they were doing genocide and shit

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 15:29:41 No.120107353 Report

Quoted By:

>>120100280
Not really, Simon was never a hero or good, he was just cucked from having a redemption arc due to bad writing

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 15:35:52 No.120107459 Report

Quoted By:

>>120101369
Problem is most modern villains don’t have a motivation or ideology that makes you understand why they are the way they are. It’s still good vs evil, it’s just that now evil realizes the error of their ways and good forgives them.
The issue with SU for example is that the crystal gems are 100% in the right and any villain they face is completely in the wrong. So it’s less that the bad guys have a point and more that they are all dumb and need to understand they’re evil so they can stop being evil

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 15:37:31 No.120107486 Report

Quoted By:

>>120107075
If ACAB then AGAN.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 15:37:53 No.120107497 Report

Quoted By: >>120107584

>>120107332
Technically, Trunks is the one who calls him out when he starts being a retard and lets Cell evolve. I can suspend my disbelief a at Vegeta not wanting to conquer planets as repaying Goku or his goal shifting to becoming stronger than Goku.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 15:42:24 No.120107584 Report

Quoted By:

>>120107497
Trunks calls him out when it happens, but after the fact he still trains with him for a year like that’s not something that bothers him

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 15:52:42 No.120107753 Report

Quoted By:

>>120104226
The perpetrator should be willing to face punishment, or maybe they may recognize payback is possible but are too frightened to die. Recognizing you deserve to die but running from sure death because of survival instinct and cowardice would be an interesting thing to see.

But a villain usually has other talents that makes him useful. Would be a interesting to read that someone just assassinated Character X right in the middle of him curing cancer or saving a village of starving children. But then again bittersweet morality stuff like that I like.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 15:56:34 No.120107835 Report

Quoted By: >>120107919

>>120099705
A major problem with villain redemption stories is that you never get the common civilian's perspective. If a villain goes and harms or kills someone, you never know how that person or a family member feels or if the former villain shows remorse for what they did.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 16:00:20 No.120107919 Report

Quoted By:

>>120107835
I mean, I'd imagine that anyone directly impacted by the villain would think his redemption is bullshit, regardless of what he does to 'atone.' People aren't quick to forget personal wrongs, especially big ones like murder of family.
But I'd argue that, in any proper villain redemption story, there shouldn't be any ambiguity towards if the villain actually feels remorse. If he didn't, there wouldn't really be a redemption story, he'd just be manipulating everyone and taking advantage of their better nature, and is thus still a villain.
The common person probably doesn't care. If you heard tomorrow that some African Warlord had decided to turn himself in and dedicate the rest of his life to charity, you probably wouldn't even remember his name in a week's time.

Anonymous

Anonymous Tue 05 Jan 2021 16:07:19 No.120108049 Report

Quoted By:

>>120101560
Not one evil guy in Castlevania deserves redemption, eveb if the creators wanted to paint then ad "morally gray"
I was originally interested in seeing how they would handle Hector's but after the show made him a cunt willingly participating in the genocide and had him betraying Dracula cause Cerse, I mean Carmilla buttered him up with compliments and scared him with the prospect of dying rather than him actually regretting what he did I don't really care anymore.

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