/sci/ - Science & Math » Thread #10410412

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Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 13:29:22 2019 No.10410412 View Reply Original Report

Quoted By: >>10410453 >>10410456 >>10410463 >>10410720 >>10410900 >>10410924 >>10411174 >>10411660 >>10411672 >>10412025 >>10412237 >>10414069 >>10414203

This is really difficult to word so i'm going to ask you guys. Is there a proper term or way of asking the reasoning/science behind why we're ourselves? Like for example, why am I me (control this body) instead of you the person reading this? Is there a reasoning behind this? Like why is my consciousness with this body instead of another one?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 13:42:19 No.10410430 Report

Quoted By: >>10410432 >>10410456

You're looking for the hard problem of consciousness. Yes, that's literally what it's called.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 13:42:30 No.10410431 Report

Quoted By: >>10410456

modern understanding of science can't possible answer that, however some religion thinks it's down to what you did on the previous life

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 13:43:20 No.10410432 Report

Quoted By: >>10410442 >>10410516

>>10410430
Do you have like a link or something I can learn about it? I'm pretty stupid t b h so literally anything helps.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 13:46:45 No.10410438 Report

Quoted By: >>10410460

I just find it so fucking strange that I see through my eyes instead of someone else's and there being no reason for it. It drives me fucking crazy.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 13:51:19 No.10410442 Report

Quoted By:

>>10410432
there's nothing. Read relevant stuffs and make your own theories

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 13:53:15 No.10410448 Report

Quoted By:

>why am I me and not you?
that's how I phrase it

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 13:54:30 No.10410453 Report

Quoted By:

>>10410412
Also, this is a question for which there can never be reasoning/science for. It is purely metaphysical, and it will always remain metaphysical.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 13:57:38 No.10410456 Report

Quoted By: >>10410462 >>10410659 >>10411660

>>10410412
Utterly retarded. It's not like there's a lottery of souls being put into bodies. Your consciousness developed from your body.

>>10410430
It's literally not the hard problem.

>>10410431
>>>/x/

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 13:58:59 No.10410460 Report

Quoted By: >>10410507 >>10410722

>>10410438
What makes this even more strange, is that apparently, from what we know experimentally, consciousnesses can be combined, divided and recombined. Such that, whatever "other" person you are combined with, the both of you feel as though you are one. It suggests that there is only one consciousness, but for whatever reason it gets trapped in "consciousness wells" that make up our individual selves.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 14:01:12 No.10410462 Report

Quoted By: >>10410511 >>10411082 >>10411108 >>10414241

>>10410456
>Your consciousness developed from your body.
This makes no sense. I know that my consciousness is consigned to my particular body. But that's not the question at all. The question is rather what determines that my particular experience is consigned to THIS body and not some other one. There is no clear explanation for this in any body of knowledge humans have ever developed.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 14:01:17 No.10410463 Report

Quoted By: >>10410475

>>10410412
Your nervous system is in your body, so it can only control your body. As simple as that.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 14:05:50 No.10410472 Report

Quoted By: >>10410477

You, the one reading this, take turns being in every body. http://www.galactanet.com/oneoff/theegg_mod.html

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 14:07:34 No.10410475 Report

Quoted By: >>10410480

>>10410463
You don't understand the question.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 14:08:17 No.10410477 Report

Quoted By: >>10410484

>>10410472
>take turns being in every body
YES! This is what I have been thinking all along.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 14:10:52 No.10410480 Report

Quoted By: >>10410486

>>10410475
You asked why (You) are not me. The answer is that we are different people.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 14:13:28 No.10410484 Report

Quoted By:

>>10410477
Not an uncommon belief. I started thinking that's the case after a mad LSD trip where I saw that all of reality is looping infinitely.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 14:13:53 No.10410486 Report

Quoted By: >>10410498

>>10410480
You are oversimplifying it. The question is more layered than that.
The question is "why am I me and not you"
And your answer is "just because"
Which is analogous to "why do the seasons change"
And your answer being "just cause they do, duh!"

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 14:20:48 No.10410498 Report

Quoted By: >>10410506

>>10410486
Do you agree that consciousness is a result of physical reactions? (you should). Once you accept that it's obvious why different people have different experiences.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 14:24:52 No.10410506 Report

Quoted By: >>10410513 >>10410525

>>10410498
Why is this so hard to explain? I am not saying that consciousness doesn't have a physical component. Obviously it does. I am just saying that particular first-person-perspectives, and why they are particular to YOU and not someone else, are not determined by any physical process that we know about.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 14:25:17 No.10410507 Report

Quoted By: >>10410511 >>10410530

>>10410460
>>>/x/

>The question is rather what determines that my particular experience is consigned to THIS body and not some other one.
It's not "consigned" you fucking moron, it's the same thing. You are stuck on this idea that your consciousness is some independent thing floating around which gets added to a random body at birth. That's not how it works. It's like asking why you have your hair and not someone else's hair. The question makes no sense.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 14:26:54 No.10410511 Report

Quoted By:

>>10410507
Meant to reply to >>10410462

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 14:27:57 No.10410513 Report

Quoted By: >>10410523

>>10410506
Is your hair determined by a physical process we don't know about?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 14:29:02 No.10410516 Report

Quoted By:

>>10410432
Wikipedia. Just search for "Hard problem of consciousness"

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 14:32:36 No.10410523 Report

Quoted By: >>10410541

>>10410513
Reducing consciousness to the level of hair is unfair. Even your hands, though innervated, are not as conscious as you are.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 14:33:37 No.10410525 Report

Quoted By: >>10410539 >>10414246

>>10410506
Like everything else experiences are governed by physical laws so of course they are "restricted" to your body in the same way that an explosion in one country isn't felt in another.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 14:35:54 No.10410530 Report

Quoted By: >>10410549

>>10410507
But that's wrong. Your hair and your nails possess maybe 0.0001% of your consciousness. Your hands might possess 0.01%, equalling to the awareness of on earthworm. But none of those things can be compared to your level of awareness.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 14:39:11 No.10410539 Report

Quoted By:

>>10410525
The WAY you experience the world may be governed by physical laws, but the FACT that you do is not.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 14:39:42 No.10410541 Report

Quoted By: >>10410553

>>10410523
>Consciousness is different than hair, therefore consciousness doesn't develop from your body
Doesn't follow.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 14:42:01 No.10410549 Report

Quoted By: >>10410565

>>10410530
>But that's wrong. Your hair and your nails possess maybe 0.0001% of your consciousness.
Do you understand how an analogy works? This is gibberish and doesn't respond to my post. Why do you have your hair and not someone else's?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 14:43:56 No.10410553 Report

Quoted By: >>10410602 >>10411099

>>10410541
I didn't say consciousness is independent of your body. Obviously, the consciousness well that is your body traps awareness to a greater degree than the body of an earthworm does. The point is that consciousness doesn't "develop". It just is. And then it happens to get trapped in less aware or more aware bodies. It exists without our bodies.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 14:48:11 No.10410565 Report

Quoted By: >>10411112

>>10410549
The fact of the matter is simply that consciousness can't be compared to something physical like hair
>the soul of an ax is to cut
In the words of Hillary Putnam, famed philosopher of science

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 15:06:03 No.10410602 Report

Quoted By: >>10410612

>>10410553
>consciousness doesn't develop
I really thought you were trolling, but this belief explains all of this thread.

I don't think you have good reasons for assuming this conclusion.

Do you think babies start off conscious? At some point everyone was no more conscious than an earthworm. Babies are cute, but pretty useless.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 15:12:55 No.10410612 Report

Quoted By: >>10410714

>>10410602
By saying that I didn't mean to say that there aren't degrees of consciousness. There clearly are. When I said it doesn't "develop" I meant that it doesn't develop from nothing. It develops, sprouts and becomes more complex from something that has always been there.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 15:38:01 No.10410659 Report

Quoted By:

>>10410456
>actually being a Hegelian

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 16:08:14 No.10410714 Report

Quoted By:

>>10410612
Okay. It doesn't grow solely out of something initially present, though. Your sense of individuality very much comes from memories, that are literally a point of view.

If you'd grown up under other circumstances you would to some extent be a different person. Although it seems twins turn out pretty similar in more ways than you might expect.

Lots of things go into making you you. Mostly though, it's genes and upbringing.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 16:12:43 No.10410720 Report

Quoted By:

>>10410412
Because consciousness is entirely physical, material and local.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 16:16:55 No.10410722 Report

Quoted By: >>10410730

>>10410460
>from what we know experimentally
What experiments are you referring to?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 16:22:17 No.10410730 Report

Quoted By: >>10410743 >>10410867 >>10410884

>>10410722
If you have to ask you are uniformed. I'm not trying to be an asshole. I'm just saying you should know all of this.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 16:32:16 No.10410743 Report

Quoted By: >>10411859

>>10410730
*needle drifts to the right*

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 17:31:24 No.10410867 Report

Quoted By: >>10411859

>>10410730
>I'm completely and utterly full of shit
Glad you cleared that up for us.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 17:37:54 No.10410884 Report

Quoted By: >>10411859

>>10410730
>I just know and you don’t so I win
gg

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 17:41:42 No.10410900 Report

Quoted By:

>>10410412
The reason is because you are attached to this body's signal. You identified with it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 17:50:51 No.10410924 Report

Quoted By: >>10411041 >>10411633

>>10410412
I think what you’re not understanding is that when you ask this question, you’re not a soul asking why you aren’t in a different body. You’re a body asking why you’re not a different body.

I do understand pondering this question, but the anticlimactic truth is just that you aren’t someone else because you’re you. It’s one of those metaphysical questions without a real answer, and which we only ask because the emergence of our own consciousness seems so surreal and paranormal.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 18:24:09 No.10411041 Report

Quoted By:

>>10410924
But there is a real answer. It's not mystical or metaphysical at all. In order for what we call consciousness to extend to a different body, there needs to a suitable pathway of electrical and chemical communication, and possibly a given compatibility of the preexisting structures. The fact that a brain is essentially such a communication network is what makes it produce a person, and thus each personhood is also tied to a specific physical brain and none other.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 18:43:25 No.10411082 Report

Quoted By: >>10412031 >>10412060 >>10412065 >>10412082 >>10412089

>>10410462
The same reason you look at sand on the beach and THIS grain of sand is not any other.

Its because it isn't, like its not actually complex or difficult, the reason is obvious.

But it requires you to accept you don't have free will, and you don't like that so you ignore it as an option.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 18:48:33 No.10411099 Report

Quoted By: >>10411861

>>10410553
Yeah all of that is wrong. >>>/x/

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 18:51:40 No.10411108 Report

Quoted By:

>>10410462
The body and the mind formed mostly concurrently (body just slightly ahead) and are intrinsically tied together. Thinking of consciousness as separate from the body is wrong, and thus the notion of "being someone else" is nonsensical.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 18:52:45 No.10411112 Report

Quoted By: >>10411862

>>10410565
The simple fact of the matter is that's not a fact.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 19:11:12 No.10411174 Report

Quoted By:

>>10410412
>Like why is my consciousness with this body instead of another one?
define "consciousness"

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 22:52:46 No.10411633 Report

Quoted By:

>>10410924
There most likely is a real answer but I doubt it's within human comprehension. Also that's fine if you're an atheist, but don't rule the soul thing out.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 22:57:01 No.10411640 Report

Quoted By:

I don't understand this thread at all

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 23:06:47 No.10411660 Report

Quoted By: >>10411867 >>10412077

>>10410456
This

>>10410412
It’s the same reason you aren’t your computer. When a normal human brain is awake and operating, it generates the feelings of being a conscious individual. Because you are your body, you naturally experience the consciousness that goes along with that body. If an exact replica were made of your body (like the teleportation thought experiment), then it would be a separate individual from you that would experience a separate consciousness that feels to it just like yours does to you.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 23:08:25 No.10411666 Report

Quoted By:

Still don't understand

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 23:10:26 No.10411672 Report

Quoted By: >>10412049

>>10410412
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ709yH9NqY

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 23:12:23 No.10411678 Report

Quoted By: >>10411696

>/sci/ completely shits its pants at the presence of babbys first methaphysical question
Lmao

Anonymous

Anonymous Sat 23 Feb 2019 23:20:26 No.10411696 Report

Quoted By:

>>10411678
>metaphysics
>science

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Feb 2019 00:18:37 No.10411859 Report

Quoted By:

>>10410743
>>10410867
>>10410884
It would take too long for me to go back and find all the literature I read on this over the years for you guys.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Feb 2019 00:20:09 No.10411861 Report

Quoted By: >>10412037

>>10411099
And how would you know, brainlet?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Feb 2019 00:20:50 No.10411862 Report

Quoted By:

>>10411112
That's a pretty stupid thing to say.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Feb 2019 00:22:53 No.10411867 Report

Quoted By: >>10412114

>>10411660
>Because you are your body, you naturally experience the consciousness that goes along with that body.
You haven't explained WHY (which was the original question) your first person experience happens to reside in your particular body and not some other body. From your description, all bodies are equal. So why should yours, in particular, be privileged with your particular first person experience?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Feb 2019 01:05:26 No.10411992 Report

Quoted By:

>the body of knowledge that the physical sciences provide us with is not able even in
principle to capture the existence of conscious phenomena
simple as

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Feb 2019 01:06:47 No.10411997 Report

Quoted By:

>the body of knowledge that the physical sciences provide us with is not able even in principle to capture the existence of conscious phenomena
simple as

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Feb 2019 01:18:05 No.10412025 Report

Quoted By: >>10412079

>>10410412
Because your consciousness is nothing more than the neural network in your head. If that neural network didn’t exist, your “consciousness” wouldn’t either. You’re assuming that “consciousness” is a thing, when really it’s just what we use to describe what’s going on in your brain when we give it stimulus and read the output. Sorry I don’t have better words for what I’m trying to describe.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Feb 2019 01:19:47 No.10412031 Report

Quoted By:

>>10411082
this anon has explained it clearly. Once again, OP is a faggot and can’t accept reality

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Feb 2019 01:20:59 No.10412037 Report

Quoted By:

>>10411861
It’s funny seeing literally brain damaged retards call people “brainlet”. Well, now that I think about it, it’s a little sad.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Feb 2019 01:24:35 No.10412049 Report

Quoted By: >>10412300

>>10411672
This guy actually made sense. Just skip to 9:20 if you can't stand his lecture for brainlets. The answer is obviously that we are all each other simultaneously, we are just unaware of it.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Feb 2019 01:27:50 No.10412060 Report

Quoted By:

>>10411082
Except I full accept that I don't have free will. This explains nothing. A grain of sand is not conscious (or at the very least, its consciousness is so low that it would never be stunned with surprise that its low low consciousness is condensed and confined to a consciousness well, much like a gravity well, in its particular location)

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Feb 2019 01:29:01 No.10412065 Report

Quoted By:

>>10411082
Except I fully accept that I don't have free will. This explains nothing. A grain of sand is not conscious (or at the very least, its consciousness is so low that it would never be stunned with surprise that its low low consciousness is condensed and confined to a consciousness well, much like a gravity well, in its particular location)

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Feb 2019 01:37:49 No.10412077 Report

Quoted By:

>>10411660
Yeah but WHY though. That isn't an explanation to why we're specific people.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Feb 2019 01:38:50 No.10412079 Report

Quoted By: >>10412161

>>10412025
Go back to your rick n morty containment thread.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Feb 2019 01:40:47 No.10412082 Report

Quoted By:

>>10411082
A grain of sand doesn't see, feel, hear, etc.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Feb 2019 01:43:04 No.10412089 Report

Quoted By:

>>10411082
>Same reason i'm not a planet or a star or some other inanimate object
Please keep your scat, vore and transmutation fetishes to yourself.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Feb 2019 01:58:17 No.10412114 Report

Quoted By: >>10412119 >>10412288

>>10411867
The question makes no sense since it presupposes that that's even a possibility. It's not.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Feb 2019 01:59:40 No.10412119 Report

Quoted By: >>10412259

>>10412114
What are you babbling about? Are you trying to say that I am actually you and not me?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Feb 2019 02:08:49 No.10412141 Report

Quoted By: >>10412157

>what is consciousness
no one knows lol
the good news is that it can be controlled and manipulated to our desires (just not today, but we already know it's possible)
you don't have to know what steam is or what temperature is or precisely why particles ceaselessly gyrate in the first place to be able to use it in locomotives
you don't have to know precisely what fields actually are in order to be able to quantify them and control them and use them to create things like computers
the same is true of consciousness

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Feb 2019 02:15:37 No.10412157 Report

Quoted By: >>10412163

>>10412141
You’re just saying this because you’re retarded and it makes you feel better.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Feb 2019 02:16:47 No.10412161 Report

Quoted By:

>>10412079
Ok, keep being a stupid nigger, faggot

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Feb 2019 02:18:06 No.10412163 Report

Quoted By: >>10412179

>>10412157
we don't have to know what consciousness is, just use it for our ends, which we can

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Feb 2019 02:23:52 No.10412179 Report

Quoted By:

>>10412163
That’s what you’re doing by using your brain. You’re trying to imply that “consciousness” is an inherent thing that exists everywhere or something. What you’re implying is pseudoscience garbage that’s “what the bleep do we know” tier shit. It’s modern alchemy nonsense. Sorry. You’re wrong.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Feb 2019 02:48:37 No.10412237 Report

Quoted By:

>>10410412
Some things humans can't comprehend.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Feb 2019 02:53:45 No.10412259 Report

Quoted By:

>>10412119
What the fuck? Are you illiterate?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Feb 2019 03:01:05 No.10412288 Report

Quoted By:

>>10412114
Your “first person perspective” is just your physical brain trying to understand it’s place in the world. You are your brain. What you experience is the result of an incomprehensibly complex neural network.

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 24 Feb 2019 03:03:52 No.10412296 Report

Quoted By: >>10412588

Blah blah blah, chemicals, blah blah blah blah, biology, blah blah blah, electrochemical impulses.
If you weren't you, would you do anything differently? If not, why does it matter?

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Feb 2019 03:05:59 No.10412300 Report

Quoted By:

>>10412049
This is some Daniel Dennett-tier retardation. How can I be everyone but unaware of it? This consciousness subjectively experiencing being me is what "I" am by definition.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Feb 2019 05:37:55 No.10412588 Report

Quoted By:

>>10412296
So science can't explain it?

Anonymous

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Anonymous Sun 24 Feb 2019 19:17:02 No.10414069 Report

Quoted By:

>>10410412
Think of conciousness as of a fragment of intelligence. In its infinite sea, it is vast and undivided, but once it identifies a body, it divides and and deludes itself into keeping the host alive.
This happens outside observable reality, but can be rationally deduced through states of consciousness detachment such as certain brain pattern overload / clinical death, so you can't prove it scientifically. This is why there should be a separate board for serious philosophy and not empirical tier science.

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Feb 2019 19:57:49 No.10414203 Report

Quoted By:

>>10410412
this is why you needn't fear death
your consciousness will arise in another body as soon as this one dies

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Feb 2019 20:06:33 No.10414241 Report

Quoted By:

>>10410462
because your body exists, and it generates a consciousness, "someone" (i.e., you) had to "be" that consciousness

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Feb 2019 20:08:06 No.10414246 Report

Quoted By:

>>10410525
>an explosion in one country isn't felt in another

with sensitive enough means it can

everything can be felt everywhere

>he's never done LSD
>laughinggrills.png

Anonymous

Anonymous Sun 24 Feb 2019 20:18:17 No.10414281 Report

Quoted By:

Science can't explain consciousness. If it could, it would be front-page news. Simple as.

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